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Thread: STUN feature for v4/v6 transition




STUN feature for v4/v6 transition
user name
2007-06-08 17:18:30
STUNbis has some mysterious text in it, dealing with v4/v6
and mapped 
addreses. It says this:

  It is possible for an IPv4 host to receive a
MAPPED-ADDRESS
    containing an IPv6 address, or for an IPv6 host to
receive a MAPPED-
    ADDRESS containing an IPv4 address.  Clients MUST be
prepared for
    this case.


The spec is entirely unclear on what it means to be prepared
for this. 
Indeed, when would this even happen? Here is the deployment
model 
envisioned for this case:


    Please view in a fixed-width font such as
                    Courier.



        +-----------+
        |    v4     |
        |  STUN     |
        |   Server  |
        |           |
        +-----------+               +----------+
                                    |          |
                                    | v4-only  |
                                    |   host   |
               v4 Internet          |          |
                                    +----------+







        +-----------------+
        |   v4 to v6 NAT  |
        +-----------------+


            v6 local net


         +----------+
         |          |
         | v6-only  |
         |  host    |
         |          |
         +----------+



There is a v6-only host behind a NAT. This NAT is v6 on the
private side 
and v4 on the public side. It does twice-NAT; for packets
outbound from 
the private to public sides, it converts the v6 source IP to
a v4 
IP/port from a pool on the v4 public Internet side. It also
converts the 
destination addresses from v6 to v4; the v6 address would
need to be a 
v4-encapsulated v6 address or something for which there is a
static 
mapping.

So the v6 only host sends a STUN request to a v6
destination. This goes 
through the NAT, which allocates the host a v4 binding and
translates 
the destination to the corresponding v4 destination - the
STUN server. 
The STUN server returns the v4 mapped address in the
MAPPED-ADDRESS.

Now, this v6 host is going to get a STUN response that has a

MAPPED-ADDRESS that is v4. If we consider the usage of STUN
binding 
indication without ICE as a simple example, the v6-only host
would 
include the v4 address into the SDP of an INVITE, and send
it out. If 
the target host is v4-only as in the picture, the media will
work from 
the v4-only host to the v6 host.

The story is similar with ICE and it works quite well in
fact.

None of this requires the v6-only host to have a v4 address,
it just 
needs to 'be prepared' to use a v4 address in this way. Now,
there are 
lots of other things you need to assume are working in this
story for 
the whole thing to come together, but this is the envisioned
use case.

So, are people interested in this use case? Is this a valid
transition 
scenario? If not, we can remove this vague text from
3489bis. If so, we 
need to add some clarity about what it means.

Thanks,
Jonathan R.
-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                   600 Lanidex
Plaza
Cisco Fellow                                   Parsippany,
NJ 07054-2711
Cisco Systems
jdrosencisco.com                              FAX:   (973)
952-5050
http://www.jdrosen.net 
                       PHONE: (973) 952-5000
http://www.cisco.com


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Re: STUN feature for v4/v6 transition
country flaguser name
Finland
2007-06-09 02:51:46
Hi,

I think we should remove the text from the STUNbis spec. We
should talk 
about these issues in draft-ietf-behave-turn-ipv6-02.txt. We
have had 
some good discussions on this draft on this list and I will
be putting 
together a new revision reflecting our conclusions as soon
as I can 
(right now, I am on the road).

Regarding the use case you provide in your email, note that
the NAT-PT 
spec is being moved to Historic. Therefore, you are right to
question if 
that is a valid transition scenario:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts
/draft-ietf-v6ops-natpt-to-historic-00.txt

In any case, I agree with you that the STUNbis spec is not
the place to 
deal with those issues. If we wanted to cover the few legacy
networks 
using NAT-PT for v4/v6 transition directly in the STUNbis
spec, we could 
say that a client receiving an address whose address family
it 
understands, it can use it. If the address family, and thus
the address 
itself, is not understood, it is discarded.

Cheers,

Gonzalo



Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:
> STUNbis has some mysterious text in it, dealing with
v4/v6 and mapped 
> addreses. It says this:
> 
>  It is possible for an IPv4 host to receive a
MAPPED-ADDRESS
>    containing an IPv6 address, or for an IPv6 host to
receive a MAPPED-
>    ADDRESS containing an IPv4 address.  Clients MUST be
prepared for
>    this case.
> 
> 
> The spec is entirely unclear on what it means to be
prepared for this. 
> Indeed, when would this even happen? Here is the
deployment model 
> envisioned for this case:
> 
> 
>    Please view in a fixed-width font such as
>                    Courier.
> 
> 
> 
>        +-----------+
>        |    v4     |
>        |  STUN     |
>        |   Server  |
>        |           |
>        +-----------+               +----------+
>                                    |          |
>                                    | v4-only  |
>                                    |   host   |
>               v4 Internet          |          |
>                                    +----------+
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>        +-----------------+
>        |   v4 to v6 NAT  |
>        +-----------------+
> 
> 
>            v6 local net
> 
> 
>         +----------+
>         |          |
>         | v6-only  |
>         |  host    |
>         |          |
>         +----------+
> 
> 
> 
> There is a v6-only host behind a NAT. This NAT is v6 on
the private side 
> and v4 on the public side. It does twice-NAT; for
packets outbound from 
> the private to public sides, it converts the v6 source
IP to a v4 
> IP/port from a pool on the v4 public Internet side. It
also converts the 
> destination addresses from v6 to v4; the v6 address
would need to be a 
> v4-encapsulated v6 address or something for which there
is a static 
> mapping.
> 
> So the v6 only host sends a STUN request to a v6
destination. This goes 
> through the NAT, which allocates the host a v4 binding
and translates 
> the destination to the corresponding v4 destination -
the STUN server. 
> The STUN server returns the v4 mapped address in the
MAPPED-ADDRESS.
> 
> Now, this v6 host is going to get a STUN response that
has a 
> MAPPED-ADDRESS that is v4. If we consider the usage of
STUN binding 
> indication without ICE as a simple example, the v6-only
host would 
> include the v4 address into the SDP of an INVITE, and
send it out. If 
> the target host is v4-only as in the picture, the media
will work from 
> the v4-only host to the v6 host.
> 
> The story is similar with ICE and it works quite well
in fact.
> 
> None of this requires the v6-only host to have a v4
address, it just 
> needs to 'be prepared' to use a v4 address in this way.
Now, there are 
> lots of other things you need to assume are working in
this story for 
> the whole thing to come together, but this is the
envisioned use case.
> 
> So, are people interested in this use case? Is this a
valid transition 
> scenario? If not, we can remove this vague text from
3489bis. If so, we 
> need to add some clarity about what it means.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jonathan R.



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Re: STUN feature for v4/v6 transition
user name
2007-06-10 09:20:37
OK, so suggest that perhaps the text say that handling of a

mapped-address using a different address family is outside
the scope of 
this specification, and clients that don't know what to do
with it, 
should treat it as an error.

-Jonathan R.

Gonzalo Camarillo wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I think we should remove the text from the STUNbis
spec. We should talk 
> about these issues in
draft-ietf-behave-turn-ipv6-02.txt. We have had 
> some good discussions on this draft on this list and I
will be putting 
> together a new revision reflecting our conclusions as
soon as I can 
> (right now, I am on the road).
> 
> Regarding the use case you provide in your email, note
that the NAT-PT 
> spec is being moved to Historic. Therefore, you are
right to question if 
> that is a valid transition scenario:
> 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts
/draft-ietf-v6ops-natpt-to-historic-00.txt 
> 
> 
> In any case, I agree with you that the STUNbis spec is
not the place to 
> deal with those issues. If we wanted to cover the few
legacy networks 
> using NAT-PT for v4/v6 transition directly in the
STUNbis spec, we could 
> say that a client receiving an address whose address
family it 
> understands, it can use it. If the address family, and
thus the address 
> itself, is not understood, it is discarded.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gonzalo
> 
> 
> 
> Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:
> 
>> STUNbis has some mysterious text in it, dealing
with v4/v6 and mapped 
>> addreses. It says this:
>>
>>  It is possible for an IPv4 host to receive a
MAPPED-ADDRESS
>>    containing an IPv6 address, or for an IPv6 host
to receive a MAPPED-
>>    ADDRESS containing an IPv4 address.  Clients
MUST be prepared for
>>    this case.
>>
>>
>> The spec is entirely unclear on what it means to be
prepared for this. 
>> Indeed, when would this even happen? Here is the
deployment model 
>> envisioned for this case:
>>
>>
>>    Please view in a fixed-width font such as
>>                    Courier.
>>
>>
>>
>>        +-----------+
>>        |    v4     |
>>        |  STUN     |
>>        |   Server  |
>>        |           |
>>        +-----------+               +----------+
>>                                    |          |
>>                                    | v4-only  |
>>                                    |   host   |
>>               v4 Internet          |          |
>>                                    +----------+
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>        +-----------------+
>>        |   v4 to v6 NAT  |
>>        +-----------------+
>>
>>
>>            v6 local net
>>
>>
>>         +----------+
>>         |          |
>>         | v6-only  |
>>         |  host    |
>>         |          |
>>         +----------+
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a v6-only host behind a NAT. This NAT is
v6 on the private 
>> side and v4 on the public side. It does twice-NAT;
for packets 
>> outbound from the private to public sides, it
converts the v6 source 
>> IP to a v4 IP/port from a pool on the v4 public
Internet side. It also 
>> converts the destination addresses from v6 to v4;
the v6 address would 
>> need to be a v4-encapsulated v6 address or
something for which there 
>> is a static mapping.
>>
>> So the v6 only host sends a STUN request to a v6
destination. This 
>> goes through the NAT, which allocates the host a v4
binding and 
>> translates the destination to the corresponding v4
destination - the 
>> STUN server. The STUN server returns the v4 mapped
address in the 
>> MAPPED-ADDRESS.
>>
>> Now, this v6 host is going to get a STUN response
that has a 
>> MAPPED-ADDRESS that is v4. If we consider the usage
of STUN binding 
>> indication without ICE as a simple example, the
v6-only host would 
>> include the v4 address into the SDP of an INVITE,
and send it out. If 
>> the target host is v4-only as in the picture, the
media will work from 
>> the v4-only host to the v6 host.
>>
>> The story is similar with ICE and it works quite
well in fact.
>>
>> None of this requires the v6-only host to have a v4
address, it just 
>> needs to 'be prepared' to use a v4 address in this
way. Now, there are 
>> lots of other things you need to assume are working
in this story for 
>> the whole thing to come together, but this is the
envisioned use case.
>>
>> So, are people interested in this use case? Is this
a valid transition 
>> scenario? If not, we can remove this vague text
from 3489bis. If so, 
>> we need to add some clarity about what it means.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jonathan R.
> 
> 

-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                   600 Lanidex
Plaza
Cisco Fellow                                   Parsippany,
NJ 07054-2711
Cisco Systems
jdrosencisco.com                              FAX:   (973)
952-5050
http://www.jdrosen.net 
                       PHONE: (973) 952-5000
http://www.cisco.com


_______________________________________________
Behave mailing list
Behaveietf.org
https:/
/www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/behave

Re: STUN feature for v4/v6 transition
user name
2007-06-11 02:02:29
On Saturday 09 June 2007 01:18:30 ext Jonathan Rosenberg
wrote:
> STUNbis has some mysterious text in it, dealing with
v4/v6 and mapped
> addreses. It says this:
>
>   It is possible for an IPv4 host to receive a
MAPPED-ADDRESS
>     containing an IPv6 address, or for an IPv6 host to
receive a MAPPED-
>     ADDRESS containing an IPv4 address.  Clients MUST
be prepared for
>     this case.
>
>
> The spec is entirely unclear on what it means to be
prepared for this.
> Indeed, when would this even happen?

My main concern with this text is that it breaks terribly
whenever the server 
sends a redirect to another server, as the client has no
idea how to send 
traffic to a server that has a different address family than
the one it is 
using.

That being said, while v6/v6 NATs are not supposed to be
used (so that IPv6 
binding discovery should not be ever needed, though
keep-alives might well 
be), there are v6-to-v4 NATs. I just do not know if we need
to care about 
them, since I assume they are pretty scarce. There might
also be v4-to-v6 
NATs later on to connect legacy devices, but I guess they
won't handle IPv6 
addresses from STUN properly anyway.


Therefore, I am overall fine with suppressing the sentence.

Regards,

-- 
Rémi Denis-Courmont


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