How to make the Windows binaries easier to find on svn's main page

People on #svn often ask "where can I find a Windows
command-line
client?".  They either cannot find the package for
Windows, or, worse,
aren't even sure if one exists.  I suspect this is because
the layout
of our web site is too complex.

Here's what someone has to do to find the Windows package:

* Notice the "Downloads" link on the left side of
the main page
  (http://subversion.tigri
s.org/).  Granted, this isn't too tough 

* Scroll through rather a lot of (to them, irrelevant) stuff
on
  ht
tp://subversion.tigris.org/project_packages.html until
they see
  "Windows NT, 2000, XP and 2003"

* Read a bunch of stuff about Apache and Berkeley DB that
may well be
  irrelevant

* Choose between these options:

** Win32 packages built against Apache 2.0
** Win32 packages built against Apache 2.2
** ... a friendly Installer program             (I suspect
this is what 80% of these people really want)
** TSVN
** CollabNet Subversion
** VisualSVN

* If they chose "Win32 packages built against Apache
2.2", they now
  have to scroll through a long list
  (h
ttp://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/ProjectDocumentList?fol
derID=8100&expandFolder=8100&folderID=8100)
  of files, of which the one they actually want is either
not present
  at all (if they want an installer package), or is present
in
  multiple versions, scattered apparently at random through
the list
  (if they want a zip file containing the binaries)

* If they chose "Win32 packages built against Apache
2.0", they're in
  luck: the package they want is the third item on that
page
  (http://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/Proje
ctDocumentList?folderID=91)

Now, I realize that none of this is rocket science, but it
strikes me
as being more complex than it could be -- and (in Karl's
words) raises
a "barrier to entry".  Therefore I suggest:

* On project_packages.html, move the "friendly
Installer program" item
  to the top of the list that it's in

* Sequester older versions into an "older
versions" folder, so that,
  on the two pages I cited above, people see only links to
the latest
  version, plus that one "older versions" folder

* Ensure that the *-setup.exe files always appear first in
the list
  (they are in fact first in the list now, but I don't know
if that's
  because of a policy, which would be good, or if instead
they appear
  there merely by chance, which would be bad)

* When a page has no *-setup.exe files, as is the case for
binaries
  built against Apache 2.2, give the coveted first spot to
  svn-win32-x.y.z.zip, pushing less-needed files (such as
the Python
  bindings, development packages, and so on) further down
the list

* Provide installer packages for Apache 2.2 binaries.  I
realize that
  these are contributed by volunteers, but since we're
presumably
  auto-building Windows binaries anyway, would it be that
hard to
  incorporate an installer into the build?

* Have three links on the front page -- http://subversion.tigri
s.org/
  -- that say "download now for Windows, OS X,
Source", leading
  directly to the latest installer for Windows, .dmg for OS
X, and
  source tarball, respectively.

I don't know how hard it would be to do all of the above,
but I
strongly suspect it would make the lives of our Windows
users easier.

Thanks.
-- 
Firefox:  The one that blocks all the schmutz

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+10e9

On 10/18/07, Eric Hanchrow <offby1blarg.net> wrote:
> People on #svn often ask "where can I find a
Windows command-line
> client?".  They either cannot find the package for
Windows, or, worse,
> aren't even sure if one exists.  I suspect this is
because the layout
> of our web site is too complex.
>
> Here's what someone has to do to find the Windows
package:
>
> * Notice the "Downloads" link on the left
side of the main page
>   (http://subversion.tigri
s.org/).  Granted, this isn't too tough 
>
> * Scroll through rather a lot of (to them, irrelevant)
stuff on
>   ht
tp://subversion.tigris.org/project_packages.html until
they see
>   "Windows NT, 2000, XP and 2003"
>
> * Read a bunch of stuff about Apache and Berkeley DB
that may well be
>   irrelevant
>
> * Choose between these options:
>
> ** Win32 packages built against Apache 2.0
> ** Win32 packages built against Apache 2.2
> ** ... a friendly Installer program             (I
suspect this is what 80% of these people really want)
> ** TSVN
> ** CollabNet Subversion
> ** VisualSVN
>
> * If they chose "Win32 packages built against
Apache 2.2", they now
>   have to scroll through a long list
>   (h
ttp://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/ProjectDocumentList?fol
derID=8100&expandFolder=8100&folderID=8100)
>   of files, of which the one they actually want is
either not present
>   at all (if they want an installer package), or is
present in
>   multiple versions, scattered apparently at random
through the list
>   (if they want a zip file containing the binaries)
>
> * If they chose "Win32 packages built against
Apache 2.0", they're in
>   luck: the package they want is the third item on that
page
>   (http://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/Proje
ctDocumentList?folderID=91)
>
> Now, I realize that none of this is rocket science, but
it strikes me
> as being more complex than it could be -- and (in
Karl's words) raises
> a "barrier to entry".  Therefore I suggest:
>
> * On project_packages.html, move the "friendly
Installer program" item
>   to the top of the list that it's in
>
> * Sequester older versions into an "older
versions" folder, so that,
>   on the two pages I cited above, people see only links
to the latest
>   version, plus that one "older versions"
folder
>
> * Ensure that the *-setup.exe files always appear first
in the list
>   (they are in fact first in the list now, but I don't
know if that's
>   because of a policy, which would be good, or if
instead they appear
>   there merely by chance, which would be bad)
>
> * When a page has no *-setup.exe files, as is the case
for binaries
>   built against Apache 2.2, give the coveted first spot
to
>   svn-win32-x.y.z.zip, pushing less-needed files (such
as the Python
>   bindings, development packages, and so on) further
down the list
>
> * Provide installer packages for Apache 2.2 binaries. 
I realize that
>   these are contributed by volunteers, but since we're
presumably
>   auto-building Windows binaries anyway, would it be
that hard to
>   incorporate an installer into the build?
>
> * Have three links on the front page -- http://subversion.tigri
s.org/
>   -- that say "download now for Windows, OS X,
Source", leading
>   directly to the latest installer for Windows, .dmg
for OS X, and
>   source tarball, respectively.
>
> I don't know how hard it would be to do all of the
above, but I
> strongly suspect it would make the lives of our Windows
users easier.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> Firefox:  The one that blocks all the schmutz
>
>
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>
>

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On 10/18/07, Eric Hanchrow <offby1blarg.net> wrote:
> People on #svn often ask "where can I find a
Windows command-line
> client?".  They either cannot find the package for
Windows, or, worse,
> aren't even sure if one exists.  I suspect this is
because the layout
> of our web site is too complex.
>
[snip]
>
> * Provide installer packages for Apache 2.2 binaries. 
I realize that
>  these are contributed by volunteers, but since we're
presumably
>  auto-building Windows binaries anyway, would it be
that hard to
>  incorporate an installer into the build?
>
> * Have three links on the front page -- http://subversion.tigri
s.org/
>  -- that say "download now for Windows, OS X,
Source", leading
>  directly to the latest installer for Windows, .dmg for
OS X, and
>  source tarball, respectively.
>
> I don't know how hard it would be to do all of the
above, but I
> strongly suspect it would make the lives of our Windows
users easier.


All of these sound like great ideas to me - I am not likely
to have
any time to do much about them very soon, though.

Unfortunately, the Windows release is not completely
automated --
especially the Python bindings packages.  And I have no idea
how the
installer is built.  No doubt it could be completely
auotmated if
someone puts some effort into it, which I've been wanting
(but unable)
to do for a while.

I also would very much like to see newer dependencies used
and drop
pre-built binaries for Apache 2.0.x and Python < 2.5
sometime soon if
reasonable.  Building so many versions for all the various
combos is
time consuming and annoying.

Does anyone know if tigris keeps stats on what's been
downloaded so we
could gauge what's really being used?

DJ

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D.J. Heap wrote:
> On 10/18/07, Eric Hanchrow <offby1blarg.net> wrote:
>> People on #svn often ask "where can I find a
Windows command-line
>> client?".  They either cannot find the package
for Windows, or, worse,
>> aren't even sure if one exists.  I suspect this is
because the layout
>> of our web site is too complex.
>>
> [snip]
>> * Provide installer packages for Apache 2.2
binaries.  I realize that
>>  these are contributed by volunteers, but since
we're presumably
>>  auto-building Windows binaries anyway, would it be
that hard to
>>  incorporate an installer into the build?
..
> 
> Unfortunately, the Windows release is not completely
automated --
> especially the Python bindings packages.  And I have no
idea how the
> installer is built.  No doubt it could be completely
auotmated if
> someone puts some effort into it, which I've been
wanting (but unable)
> to do for a while.
> 
Building the installer is already automated. If you install
all
dependencies correctly and extract the files from your zip
package in
the right place,
packages/windows-innosetup/tools/mk_distro.bat will do
all the rest.

Lieven

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On 10/19/07, Lieven Govaerts <svnlgomobsol.be> wrote:
> D.J. Heap wrote:
> > On 10/18/07, Eric Hanchrow <offby1blarg.net> wrote:
> >> People on #svn often ask "where can I
find a Windows command-line
> >> client?".  They either cannot find the
package for Windows, or, worse,
> >> aren't even sure if one exists.  I suspect
this is because the layout
> >> of our web site is too complex.
> >>
> > [snip]
> >> * Provide installer packages for Apache 2.2
binaries.  I realize that
> >>  these are contributed by volunteers, but
since we're presumably
> >>  auto-building Windows binaries anyway, would
it be that hard to
> >>  incorporate an installer into the build?
> ..
> >
> > Unfortunately, the Windows release is not
completely automated --
> > especially the Python bindings packages.  And I
have no idea how the
> > installer is built.  No doubt it could be
completely auotmated if
> > someone puts some effort into it, which I've been
wanting (but unable)
> > to do for a while.
> >
> Building the installer is already automated. If you
install all
> dependencies correctly and extract the files from your
zip package in
> the right place,
packages/windows-innosetup/tools/mk_distro.bat will do
> all the rest.
>


Ah, excellent.  We should add that to the make_dist.py
packager script
then -- I'll look at doing that as soon as I can.  I also
want to add
the python bindings packaging stuff David James wrote into
that too,
but I'm not sure exactly when I'll have time to do much.

DJ

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D.J. Heap wrote:
> On 10/18/07, Eric Hanchrow <offby1blarg.net> wrote:
>> People on #svn often ask "where can I find a
Windows command-line
>> client?".  They either cannot find the package
for Windows, or, worse,
>> aren't even sure if one exists.  I suspect this is
because the layout
>> of our web site is too complex.
>>
> [snip]
>> * Provide installer packages for Apache 2.2
binaries.  I realize that
>>  these are contributed by volunteers, but since
we're presumably
>>  auto-building Windows binaries anyway, would it be
that hard to
>>  incorporate an installer into the build?
>>
>> * Have three links on the front page -- http://subversion.tigri
s.org/
>>  -- that say "download now for Windows, OS X,
Source", leading
>>  directly to the latest installer for Windows, .dmg
for OS X, and
>>  source tarball, respectively.
>>
>> I don't know how hard it would be to do all of the
above, but I
>> strongly suspect it would make the lives of our
Windows users easier.
> 
> 
> All of these sound like great ideas to me - I am not
likely to have
> any time to do much about them very soon, though.
> 
> Unfortunately, the Windows release is not completely
automated --
> especially the Python bindings packages.  And I have no
idea how the
> installer is built.  No doubt it could be completely
auotmated if
> someone puts some effort into it, which I've been
wanting (but unable)
> to do for a while.
> 
> I also would very much like to see newer dependencies
used and drop
> pre-built binaries for Apache 2.0.x and Python < 2.5
sometime soon if
> reasonable.  Building so many versions for all the
various combos is
> time consuming and annoying.

Trac still recommends using Python 2.4 against Apache 2.0
for Windows, so I 
suggest keeping those versions around for svn 1.5.

http://tr
ac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracOnWindows

Blair

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Eric, not only a huge +1 on your suggested improvements, but
also on
any other usability changes or opportunistic
bringings-up-to-date you
feel like doing along the way on our web site.

After 1.5 goes into release testing, I've been planning to
do some
serious web site cleanup.  It's dumb that the front page
still
emphasizes replacing CVS; we're way beyond that now.

-Karl

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Karl Fogel wrote:
> Eric, not only a huge +1 on your suggested
improvements, but also on
> any other usability changes or opportunistic
bringings-up-to-date you
> feel like doing along the way on our web site.
> 
> After 1.5 goes into release testing, I've been planning
to do some
> serious web site cleanup.  It's dumb that the front
page still
> emphasizes replacing CVS; we're way beyond that now.

+1 on a serious website cleanup.

Which raises another question: why do we ship www/ with
release
tarballs?  If we cleanup after we branch, the copy of www/
that ships
will be significantly different than the one that's live. 
And we
rarely, if ever, backport changes to www/  www/ adds
significant size to
the source distribution (~15%), but I've never known anybody
to actually
use it.

-Hyrum

"Hyrum K. Wright" <hyrum_wrightmail.utexas.edu> writes:
> Which raises another question: why do we ship www/ with
release
> tarballs?  If we cleanup after we branch, the copy of
www/ that ships
> will be significantly different than the one that's
live.  And we
> rarely, if ever, backport changes to www/  www/ adds
significant size to
> the source distribution (~15%), but I've never known
anybody to actually
> use it.

We probably wouldn't hear of anyone using it, even if they
were using
it, but no matter: +1 on booting it out of the released
tarball.
Better to have people forced to go to the up-to-date live
web site.

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On 10/21/07, Karl Fogel <kfogelred-bean.com> wrote:
> "Hyrum K. Wright" <hyrum_wrightmail.utexas.edu> writes:
> > Which raises another question: why do we ship www/
with release
> > tarballs?  If we cleanup after we branch, the copy
of www/ that ships
> > will be significantly different than the one
that's live.  And we
> > rarely, if ever, backport changes to www/  www/
adds significant size to
> > the source distribution (~15%), but I've never
known anybody to actually
> > use it.
>
> We probably wouldn't hear of anyone using it, even if
they were using
> it, but no matter: +1 on booting it out of the released
tarball.
> Better to have people forced to go to the up-to-date
live web site.

+1.  Subversion 1.4.5 ships with a www/index.html claiming
that 1.3.1
is the latest release.  This is just a joke.

--dave

-- 
David Glasser | glasserdavidglasser.net | http://www.davidglasser.
net/

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