Re: RFC: Changing Tutorial From HTML::Widget to C::C::FormBuilder

----- Original Message ----
From: "hkclarkgmail.com" <hkclarkgmail.com&gt;
To: Development of the elegant MVC web framework <catalyst-devlists.rawmode.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:50:28 AM
Subject: [Catalyst-dev] RFC: Changing Tutorial From HTML::Widget to C::C::FormBuilder

Hi Everyone,

I have been thinking for a while that we need to get away from HTML::Widget with the tutorial.&nbsp; The current version on CPAN does not install without a force and it sounds like maintenance has come to an end. 

In terms of which module should be used for form management, validation, and related stuff, I seem to be seeing 3 main options discussed on the list and in #catalyst (in no particular order):
1) HTML::FormFu
2) Catalyst::Controller::FormBuilder
3) Reaction

I haven't had a chance to experiment with Option 1 yet, but judging from email on the list, it sounds like Carl has done some great things with it.  I saw posts where it sounds like Carl has positioned FormFu as a replacement for H::W, but I'm not sure if it's a backward compatible sort of "drop in" replacement or a totally different approach (IOW, if we put FormFu in the tutorial, I don't know if we could migrate the existing Advanced CRUD section to FormFu or if it would require a total re-write because they are too different).  Comments welcome on that.

I have been working with C::C::FormBuilding lately and I like it.  I like how it let's you define your forms using YAML in .fb files... to me, that seems much cleaner that cluttering up my controller with the stuff I used to do with HTML::Widget.  FormBuilder seems to have a loyal following outside of Catalyst, so it should be sticking around for a while.&nbsp; I believe Jonathan Rockway will be covering FormBuilding as the primary form maintenance and validation module in his upcoming book.

I spent a little time working with Reaction, but I'm still a newbie for sure. ; It certainly sounds like the "Holy Grail" option for not just form management, but better design of your views and models.&nbsp; However, it sounds like it would still be a bit early to put that in the tutorial and have it be seen as a "best practice."  Also, even when Reaction is "finished," it still might be good to have something "less complex" or "more traditional" discussed first in the tutorial, with Reaction being a different section (or sections) that cover more than just forms (get into it's unique approach to views and models).

So, I have been thinking this might make sense:

1) Replace the existing "Advanced CRUD" section 8 with a C::C::FormBuilder section
2) When we are ready, add another section (or more) that covers Reaction (IOW, first teach FormBuilder just for forms and then teach Reaction as the more "comprehensive" solution)
3) Re the existing Advanced CRUD section that discusses HTML::Widget, I see several options:
&nbsp; a) Delete it altogether
  b) Put it at the end as a deprecated section in case some people are still interested
  c) Migrate it to FormFu

What do people think?

Thanks,
Kennedy

I've been playing with the FormFu stuff and have been liking it, but it's not a drop in replacement for HTML::Widget.  In the end it will be similar to Formbuilder in that it will allow you to use a configuration file and have great Catalyst intergration with a controller and all the goodies.&nbsp; So far I have found FormFu to give me better control over the CSS, but I might just be ignorant of the best way to use Formbuilder.

I do think this needs to be done since over the past few months the few Perl developers that I introduced Catalyst too got turned off by the trouble installing HTML::Widget and the feeling that "It's not so easy to do easy things" with it.  I don't think I agree with that, but that was the response I was getting.&nbsp; Being able to declare forms with a config file (a solution that both Formbuilder and FormFu support) helps with this a lot.

Although I'm personally using FormFu right now, if we are going to fix the tutorial today I'd lean toward Formbuilder, since it's been stable for a while and the community is large.&nbsp; I think there are quite a few Catalyst programmers that have used this now and can help newbies on the mailing list, which is very important.

If we have both Formbuilder and FormFu in the tutorial we should have a solid table of pros and cons for each system to help newbies decide which to use.

Saying that, I'd personally be interested in anything that would help understanding Reaction.&nbsp; I feel I've learned a lot just reading and trying to understand the code for this and in the end it's a lot more than for forms.&nbsp; I don't think it's much more complicated than the other systems floating around, just it's using some new concepts and technique for Perl, such as Moose.&nbsp; If Reaction ends up in the tutorial it probably belongs in a section that in more than just about doing CRUD, but more like an advanced best practices section.

--john