Non Commercial guidelines

On 6/2/06, Sincaglia, Nicolas <nsincagliamusicnow.com> wrote:
> I am a big fan of CC: 365
> Basically, it is a site where a new song is posted
(almost) everyday
> with a little blurb about the artist. The site has a
ton of banner ads on it
> though. I was curious if anyone thought this was a
violation of the
> noncommercial clause in the CC license or if this is
acceptable.

I'd say it's a violation.
The site could work out some sort of agreement with the
artists that would allow them to post the music in exchange
for a cut of the advertising revenue or something.

But as you explain it, the site is making money by
posting CC-NC music and getting hits on its banner ads.

Magnatune lets you listen to CC-SA-NC works for free,
but they will also sell you downloads or physical CD's.
And they split the money with the artist, 50-50.
They'll also sell you licenses to use the music
noncommercially
for various uses and they split that money with the artist
too.

To me, that's the intent of CC-NC.
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Greg writes
> But as you explain it, the site is making money by
> posting CC-NC music and getting hits on its banner ads.


I think this is a complicated issue. Practically all sites
have some
sort of ads to cover server costs etc. Let's say I want to
copy CC
"non-commercial" content... do I have to change
my template just to do
that?
And what if I don't know whether or not the banner ads do
more than
cover my server costs? In other words, what if I don't know
in advance
if I'll make more money than I'll spent? (E.g. I pay EUR
250/ month
for my server.)
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On 6/2/06, Philipp Lenssen <philipp.lenssengmail.com> wrote:
> Greg writes
> > But as you explain it, the site is making money by
> > posting CC-NC music and getting hits on its banner
ads.
>
>
> I think this is a complicated issue. Practically all
sites have some
> sort of ads to cover server costs etc. Let's say I
want to copy CC
> "non-commercial" content... do I have to
change my template just to do
> that?
> And what if I don't know whether or not the banner ads
do more than
> cover my server costs? In other words, what if I don't
know in advance
> if I'll make more money than I'll spent? (E.g. I pay
EUR 250/ month
> for my server.)

You should look at the site.
The guy is basically pointing out music he likes
and talking about the music or artist a little bit
in a blog format. Then he has a link to an mp3
that's on his site.

If he wanted to avoid potential infringement,
he could just as easily point to, say, a magnatune,
page that has the song, and let people listen to it
there.

Which would seem to be one of the main use
for CC-NC. Give out a free sample, then direct
people to your website to get some traffic and
potentially sell a CD or something.

Magnatune also has an exception to their CC-NC-SA
license in that they also allow commercial use under
some circumstances, as long as the total income for
a year is something like one-thousand dollars.
That would cover magnatune music, anyway.
I guess it qualifies as a dual or second license.
Even if CC-NC might not allow it, Magnatune music
allows you to make some money. Read Magnatune's
page before anyone goes and quotes me on their
rules though. I am not your lawyer.

The artist the guy talks about at the top of the blog
is Jag, an artist on magnatune. The others, I'm not
so sure about.
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> You should look at the site.
> The guy is basically pointing out music he likes
> and talking about the music or artist a little bit
> in a blog format. Then he has a link to an mp3
> that's on his site.

Gotcha. I guess I'm interested in the general question as
well.
Lawrence Lessig once said: "It is an important
problem. We're in the
process of clarifying, but it is a hard problem to
clarify."
( http://blog.outer-court.com/archive/2006-04-03-n67.html )
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On 6/2/06, Philipp Lenssen <philipp.lenssengmail.com> wrote:
> I guess I'm interested in the general question as
well.
> Lawrence Lessig once said: "It is an important
problem. We're in the
> process of clarifying, but it is a hard problem to
clarify."

CC posted the sequence of yes/no questions that help
clarify whether something satisfies the CC-NC license
or not. I don't have a link handy, though.

I've been meaning to comb through it in more detail,
so if someone has a link, maybe they could through
it out again.
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At 21:02 -0400, on 2/6/06, Greg bond wrote:
>I've been meaning to comb through it in more detail,
>so if someone has a link, maybe they could through
>it out again.

It's linked as a PDF attachment at the end of 
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-li
censes/2006-January/003125.html.

These seem to be the key considerations:

B (3) says the NC-licensed work may be used in connection
with 
advertisements for third-party products or services if it's
not the 
primary draw or a substantial amount, both qualitatively and

quantitatively

C (2) says that if money being charged for a service is
incidental to 
the use of the NC-licensed work then it's okay (so you
could charge 
to print copies of an NC-licensed work)

D (1) (c) says that money may change hands if the
NC-licensed work is 
not "the primary draw or is an insubstantial amount,
both 
qualitatively and quantitatively"

D (1) (d) says that money may change hands if the
contributions are 
optional eg. tip jar, donations, and the contribution is to
an 
individual, an educational institution or a non-profit
organization

So if a collection of NC music tracks is your primary draw,
you can 
ask for donations to support your site but you can't have
advertising.

Simon
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Here is the link to the document that Mia sent out.
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-li
censes/attachments/20060110/02d7
a271/NonCommercialGuidelinesclean-0001.pdf

Here is a graphical representation of her document.
http://www.adamfields.com/CC-NC-allowed-uses-flowchart
.pdf




-----Original Message-----
From: cc-community-bounceslists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:cc-community-bounceslists.ibiblio.org] On
Behalf Of Greg bond
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 8:02 PM
To: cc-communitylists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [cc-community] Non Commercial guidelines

On 6/2/06, Philipp Lenssen <philipp.lenssengmail.com> wrote:
> I guess I'm interested in the general question as
well.
> Lawrence Lessig once said: "It is an important
problem. We're in the
> process of clarifying, but it is a hard problem to
clarify."

CC posted the sequence of yes/no questions that help
clarify whether something satisfies the CC-NC license
or not. I don't have a link handy, though.

I've been meaning to comb through it in more detail,
so if someone has a link, maybe they could through
it out again.
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Thanks,

Ego-boo to Adam Fields for that flowchart.
Very cool. No license info on it, though.
Is the chart itself AAR? CC-BY? CC-SA?
Just curious.

Ok, so another quick read through the
guidelines, and I keep getting tripped up
by one particular clause:

E. Conditions on Use: Derivative Works

(1) Is the money changing hands in connection
    with a derivative use of an NC licensed work?

(a) If the derivative work based on an
    NC-licensed work is subject to a “ShareAlike”
    license condition, then the permitted uses of
    the derivative work should be assessed in
    accordance with D.

Can someone explain to me why the definition of
NonCommercial depends on whether the license
also happens to include a ShareAlike clause?

Greg


> Here is the link to the document that Mia sent out.
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-li
censes/attachments/20060110/02d7
> a271/NonCommercialGuidelinesclean-0001.pdf
>
> Here is a graphical representation of her document.
> http://www.adamfields.com/CC-NC-allowed-uses-flowchart
.pdf


Bounty Hunters: Metaphors for Fair IP laws
http://www.gre
gbond.com/bountyhunters/
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At www.everystockphoto.com, feedback from flickr users led
us to delist 
all NC/ND photos because we have adds on the site. Although
we are a 
search engine, these users felt that we were violating the
terms of 
these licenses, 1. by indexing NC photos on a site with ads,
2. by 
making thumbnails of out ND photos.

I cant quite figure it out via that flowchart.

Would love to hear other people's opinions.





Sincaglia, Nicolas wrote:
>
> I was just reading through the noncommercial guidelines
and wanted to 
> get some opinions about B (3) of the best practice
guidelines.
>
>  
>
> Here is what it says:
>
> *B. Nature of the use: Advertising*
>
> (3) Is the NC-licensed work being used in connection
with 
> advertisements for third
>
> party products or services where the NC-licensed work
is the primary 
> draw or a is
>
> substantial amount, both qualitatively and
quantitatively?
>
> (i) Yes - /license violation; this is not a
noncommercial use./
>
> (ii) No. Continue to the next question.
>
>  
>
> I am a big fan of CC: 365 
> (http://indieish.com/category/features/cr
eative-commons-three-sixty-five/). 
> Basically, it is a site where a new song is posted
(almost) everyday 
> with a little blurb about the artist. The site has a
ton of banner ads 
> on it though. I was curious if anyone thought this was
a violation of 
> the noncommercial clause in the CC license or if this
is acceptable.
>
>
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>   



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