Lawsuit over Virgin Mobile's and Ethical Use

to: cc thailand, cc discussion list, asiacommons

We have had some recent discussions on the
desirability/usefulness to
have an 'ethical use' clause as a possible add on to cc
licenses

I can chose, attribution, non commercial, non derivative,
sharealike
but nothing prevents a third party to use an image for
something that
I do not approve of (in an unethical marketing campaign or
an
unethical website etc)

In the story below I expect Virgin in turn can sue its
Advertising
Agency, but thats beside the point

How do I go about adding an 'ethical use' clause, Your
Honors?


On 9/28/07, Moui <poomjitgmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I do not know if any of you have read this article yet.
 It is about the
> Virgin Mobile (Australia), Flickr and CC.
>
> http://www.out-law.c
om/page-8494
>

-- 
Paola Di Maio
School of IT
www.mfu.ac.th
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On 28 Sep 2007, at 17:21, paola.dimaiogmail.com wrote:

> to: cc thailand, cc discussion list, asiacommons
>
> We have had some recent discussions on the
desirability/usefulness to
> have an 'ethical use' clause as a possible add on to cc
licenses
>
> I can chose, attribution, non commercial, non
derivative, sharealike
> but nothing prevents a third party to use an image for
something that
> I do not approve of (in an unethical marketing campaign
or an
> unethical website etc)
>
> In the story below I expect Virgin in turn can sue its
Advertising
> Agency, but thats beside the point
>
> How do I go about adding an 'ethical use' clause, Your
Honors?
>

I am against adding any 'ethical use' clause in future
revisions. The  
main reason is that it is difficult to be able to determine
what  
would be 'ethical', and you are back to having to ask
permission to  
use the work, which is what the CC licences are meant to
address  
(constantly having to ask for a licence).

I'm not too big of a fan of keeping in the moral right to
object to  
derogatory treatment either (which is in *most licences),
but  
undertsand why it is in there. It might be useful (depending
on your  
jurisdiction) to stop uses that are 'unethical'.

You wouldn't add in an 'ethical clause' to an existing
licence  
either. At least you wouldn't add it in and still call the
result a  
Creative Commons licence.

If you want to approve use of your work on a case-by-case
basis, then  
a CC licence is not appropriate.

Thanks!

~Jordan

____
Mr. Jordan S Hatcher, JD, LLM

jordan at opencontentlawyer dot com
IP/IT Blog: http://twitchgamer.net

Usage of Creative Commons by cultural heritage
organisations
<http://www.eduserv.org.uk/foundation/studies/cc2007>

"The Impact of Free Trade Agreements on Information
Technology Based  
Business"
<http://ssrn.com/a
bstract=984864>


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Jordan

how do you recommedn that can I use a cc license, and
prevent usage of
my work in an unethical context? (whatever defintion of
unethical a
licensor may have)

I appreciate your advice
cheers
P


On 9/29/07, Jordan S Hatcher <jordanopencontentlawyer.com> wrote:
>
> On 28 Sep 2007, at 17:21, paola.dimaiogmail.com
wrote:
>
> > to: cc thailand, cc discussion list, asiacommons
> >
> > We have had some recent discussions on the
desirability/usefulness to
> > have an 'ethical use' clause as a possible add on
to cc licenses
> >
> > I can chose, attribution, non commercial, non
derivative, sharealike
> > but nothing prevents a third party to use an image
for something that
> > I do not approve of (in an unethical marketing
campaign or an
> > unethical website etc)
> >
> > In the story below I expect Virgin in turn can sue
its Advertising
> > Agency, but thats beside the point
> >
> > How do I go about adding an 'ethical use' clause,
Your Honors?
> >
>
> I am against adding any 'ethical use' clause in future
revisions. The
> main reason is that it is difficult to be able to
determine what
> would be 'ethical', and you are back to having to ask
permission to
> use the work, which is what the CC licences are meant
to address
> (constantly having to ask for a licence).
>
> I'm not too big of a fan of keeping in the moral right
to object to
> derogatory treatment either (which is in *most
licences), but
> undertsand why it is in there. It might be useful
(depending on your
> jurisdiction) to stop uses that are 'unethical'.
>
> You wouldn't add in an 'ethical clause' to an existing
licence
> either. At least you wouldn't add it in and still call
the result a
> Creative Commons licence.
>
> If you want to approve use of your work on a
case-by-case basis, then
> a CC licence is not appropriate.
>
> Thanks!
>
> ~Jordan
>
> ____
> Mr. Jordan S Hatcher, JD, LLM
>
> jordan at opencontentlawyer dot com
> IP/IT Blog: http://twitchgamer.net
>
> Usage of Creative Commons by cultural heritage
organisations
> <http://www.eduserv.org.uk/foundation/studies/cc2007>
>
> "The Impact of Free Trade Agreements on
Information Technology Based
> Business"
> <http://ssrn.com/a
bstract=984864>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cc-licenses mailing list
> cc-licenseslists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-licenses
>


-- 
Paola Di Maio
School of IT
www.mfu.ac.th
*********************************************
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On 28 Sep 2007, at 18:32, paola.dimaiogmail.com wrote:

> Jordan
>
> how do you recommedn that can I use a cc license, and
prevent usage of
> my work in an unethical context? (whatever defintion of
unethical a
> licensor may have)
>
> I appreciate your advice
> cheers
> P
>
>

Paola,

I guess what I'm saying is that you _don't_ use a cc licence
with the  
expectation that you stop 'unethical' uses.

So for example, if you don't want the military to use your
work,  
don't use a CC licence.

You *may, depending on the context and the law in the
jurisdiction  
where you are trying to enforce the licence, be able to rely
on the  
right to object to derogatory treatment.

This is in the unported licence (which isn't tuned to ANY  
jurisdiction) in 4c.

"You must not distort, mutilate, modify or take other
derogatory  
action in relation to the Work which would be prejudicial to
the  
Original Author's honor or reputation."

Note however that this right is present in a wide variety of
forms  
(from virtually non-existent to strongly enforced)
throughout the world.

Thanks!

~Jordan

____
Mr. Jordan S Hatcher, JD, LLM

jordan at opencontentlawyer dot com
IP/IT Blog: http://twitchgamer.net

Usage of Creative Commons by cultural heritage
organisations
<http://www.eduserv.org.uk/foundation/studies/cc2007>

"The Impact of Free Trade Agreements on Information
Technology Based  
Business"
<http://ssrn.com/a
bstract=984864>


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cc-licenses mailing list
cc-licenseslists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-licenses

Hello Jordan,

On 9/28/07, paola.dimaiogmail.com
<paola.dimaiogmail.com> wrote:
> Jordan
>
> how do you recommedn that can I use a cc license, and
prevent usage of
> my work in an unethical context? (whatever defintion of
unethical a
> licensor may have)

Can you give a complete definition with what
"ethical" means?


Unless you are using the word "ethical" is way
that I'm unfamiliar
with... "ethics" are rules that a person
voluntarily chooses to
follow.  And which rules do and don't make up their
"ethical code" is
up to them.

(In other words... for each person... what is and isn't
ethical is different.)

Now... the problem with putting an "ethical"
clause into a license is
that if you do NOT completely define and explicitly list
what the
rules that make up your "ethical code", then
things are completely
ambiguous.  And a person won't know what they can and can't
do.

Which to me seems to be counter to the goal of the CC.  (Of
not having
to ask the creator for permission or anything else.)


-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. <http://ChangeLog.ca/>



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Hello,

On 9/28/07, Charles Iliya Krempeaux <supercanadiangmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Jordan,

Sorry... I addressed that to the wrong person.  Should have
been
addressed to "Paola Di Maio".


See ya

-- 
    Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. <http://ChangeLog.ca/>



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Charles wrote:

> Now... the problem with putting an "ethical"
clause into a license is
> that if you do NOT completely define and explicitly
list what the
> rules that make up your "ethical code", then
things are completely
> ambiguous.

Even the simplest rule can be ambiguous.   Take, for
example, the
commandment "Thy shalt not kill" (KJV).  
Obviously it refers to
people, but what about animals?  What about war? Or the
death penalty
required if somebody is convicted of a capital crime that is
defined
in the Torah?

xan

jonathon
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Jordan


> I guess what I'm saying is that you _don't_ use a cc
licence with the
> expectation that you stop 'unethical' uses

I gathered that - somehow I think that's a proble
>
> So for example, if you don't want the military to use
your work,
> don't use a CC licence.

Not just the military. Its the pornographers, the child
traffickers,
and simply anyone whose activities are detrimental to
humanity at
large. I am afraid, that makes up a large majority of
businesses and
enterpreises.

>
> You *may, depending on the context and the law in the
jurisdiction
> where you are trying to enforce the licence, be able to
rely on the
> right to object to derogatory treatment.
>
good idea, but its too wea
> This is in the unported licence (which isn't tuned to
ANY
> jurisdiction) in 4c.
>
> "You must not distort, mutilate, modify or take
other derogatory
> action in relation to the Work which would be
prejudicial to the
> Original Author's honor or reputation." (

 I tried to defent my honor and reputation I did not
go very far either - apparently I did not have a case 

>
> Note however that this right is present in a wide
variety of forms
> (from virtually non-existent to strongly enforced)
throughout the world.

well - I think thats totally unacceptable to me, as an
author, that
people may use my work
to perpetrate crime (think if someone uses my work on a
phishing scam
-  Yet, I advocate my right to share my work under CC

I think CC should find a way to protect authors against
abuse


Help me God!



Paola Di Maio

>
> Thanks!
>
> ~Jordan
>
> ____
> Mr. Jordan S Hatcher, JD, LLM
>
> jordan at opencontentlawyer dot com
> IP/IT Blog: http://twitchgamer.net
>
> Usage of Creative Commons by cultural heritage
organisations
> <http://www.eduserv.org.uk/foundation/studies/cc2007>
>
> "The Impact of Free Trade Agreements on
Information Technology Based
> Business"
> <http://ssrn.com/a
bstract=984864>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cc-licenses mailing list
> cc-licenseslists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-licenses
>


-- 
Paola Di Maio
School of IT
www.mfu.ac.th
*********************************************
_______________________________________________
cc-licenses mailing list
cc-licenseslists.ibiblio.org
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Charles

> Can you give a complete definition with what
"ethical" means?

Well, we are still discussing what 'commercial' means,
right?
Even commercial is not that straightforward

We have non commercial use, not better specified
Then we can also have 'ethical' use, and work it out later

It's not so difficult. It's a simple condition that allows
to use CC
licensed work only
if it is not used for (see annex). In the annex you can put
what you want

The work covered under this licenses, and any parts thereof,
cannot be
used in conjunction with any of the following usages

- illegal activities (any country)
- activities against human rights charter
- activities that exploit and abuse people especially
children
- to sell unhealthy product and products that harm the
environment

etcetera

Any usage that is not in the black list, would not require
permission
Any usage that is in the black list, is prohibited

simple as that



>
>
> Unless you are using the word "ethical" is
way that I'm unfamiliar
> with... "ethics" are rules that a person
voluntarily chooses to
> follow.  And which rules do and don't make up their
"ethical code" is
> up to them.

I chose not to drink coke, and to to eat McDonalds
hamburgers, and not
to promote
pornography and belligerant and slanderous websites, and not
to do
phisihing scams nor hack other people property and generally
be
respectful and kind

and I am also responsible for the work that I produce not be
used
against my principles


>
> (In other words... for each person... what is and isn't
ethical is different.)

sure - but we all agree in principle on certain points,
right?
>
> Now... the problem with putting an "ethical"
clause into a license is
> that if you do NOT completely define and explicitly
list what the
> rules that make up your "ethical code", then
things are completely
> ambiguous.  And a person won't know what they can and
can't do.

agreed. Let me start working on a an ANNEX
>

Cheers

Paola
>
>
> --

>     Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. <http://ChangeLog.ca/>

>
>
>                  Vlog Razor... Vlogging News
>                     http://vlograzor.com/
> _______________________________________________
> cc-licenses mailing list
> cc-licenseslists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/cc-licenses
>


-- 
Paola Di Maio
School of IT
www.mfu.ac.th
*********************************************
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