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Thread: RE: Trillian Secure IM




RE: Trillian Secure IM
country flaguser name
Canada
2007-10-08 11:10:35
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ian G [mailto:iangsystemics.com] 
> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 6:05 AM
> To: Peter Gutmann
> Cc: apponeyhot.org; cryptographymetzdowd.com
> Subject: Re: Trillian Secure IM
> 
> Peter Gutmann wrote:
> > "Alex Pankratov" <apponeyhot.org> writes:
> > 
> >> SecureIM handshake between two version 3.1
(latest) 
> clients takes about .. 48
> >> bytes. That's altogether, 32 bytes in one
direction, and 
> 16 in another. And
> >> that's between the clients that have never
talked to each 
> other before, so
> >> there's no "session resuming"
business happenning.
> > 
> > Or they could be using static/ephemeral DH with
fixed 
> shared DH key values,
> > which isn't much better.  (This is just
speculation, it's 
> hard to tell without
> > knowing what the exchanged quantities are).
> 
> 
> Speculation is fun.
> 
> But, opportunistic cryptography is even more fun.  It
is 
> very encouraging to see projects implement cryptography
in 
> limited forms.  A system that uses a primitive form of

> encryption is many orders of magnitude more secure than
a 
> system that implements none.

Primitive form - maybe, weak form - absolutely not. It 
is actually worse than having no security at all, because 
it tends to create an _illusion_ of protection. 

Which is by the way exactly the case with SecureIM. How 
hard is it to brute-force 128-bit DH ? My
"guesstimate"
is it's an order of minutes or even seconds, depending
on CPU resources.

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RE: Trillian Secure IM
user name
2007-10-08 13:48:20
| > But, opportunistic cryptography is even more fun.  It
is 
| > very encouraging to see projects implement
cryptography in 
| > limited forms.  A system that uses a primitive form
of 
| > encryption is many orders of magnitude more secure
than a 
| > system that implements none.
| 
| Primitive form - maybe, weak form - absolutely not. It 
| is actually worse than having no security at all, because

| it tends to create an _illusion_ of protection. 
This is an old argument.  I used to make it myself.  I even
used to
believe it.  Unfortunately, it misses the essential truth: 
The choice
is rarely between really strong cryptography and weak
cryptography; it's
between weak cryptography and no cryptography at all.  What
this
argument assumes is that people really *want* cryptography;
that if you
give them nothing, they'll keep on asking for it; but if you
give them
something weak, they'll stop asking and things will end
there.  But in
point of fact hardly anyone knows enough to actually want
cryptography.
Those who know enough will insist on the strong variety
whether or not
the weak is available; while the rest will just continue
with whatever
they have.

| Which is by the way exactly the case with SecureIM. How 
| hard is it to brute-force 128-bit DH ? My
"guesstimate"
| is it's an order of minutes or even seconds, depending
| on CPU resources.
It's much better to analyze this in terms of the cost to the
attacker
and the defender.  If the defender assigns relatively low
value to his
messages, an attack that costs the attacker more than that
low value is
of no interest.  Add in the fact that an attacker may have
to break
multiple message streams before he gets to one that's worth
anything at
all.

Even something that takes a fraction of a second to decrypt
raises the
bar considerably for an attacker who just surfs all
conversations,
scanning for something of interest.  It's easy to search for
a huge
number of keywords - or even much more complex patterns - in
parallel at
multi-megabyte/second speeds with fgrep-like (Aho-Corasick)
algorithms.
A little bit of decryption tossed in there changes the
calculations
completely.

I'm not going to defend the design choices here because I
have no idea
what the protocol constraints were, what the attack model
was (or even
if anyone actually produced one), what the hardware base was
assumed to
be at the time this was designed, etc.  Perhaps it's just
dumb design;
perhaps this was the best they could do.  Could it be
better?  Of
course.  Is it better to not put a front door on your house
because
the only ones permitted for appearance's sake are wood and
can be
broken easily?
							-- Jerry


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