Re: Helpful query for dbmail 1.x and MySQL

Simon Lange wrote:
> 
> 
> Jeff Brenton wrote:
> 
>> The perfect solution to this is to send out
periodic "privacy notices" to
>> users, pointing out that anything left on the
system, including mail 
>> left in
>> the trash folder, is subject to seizure during any
official inquiry.
>>  
>>
> does not work in germany. a federal law is a federal
law and sending 
> notices prior to violate against them is no solution.
even contract must 
> not violate (even in parts only) federal law.
> 
> in germany you must not delete mails from other users.
the *only* 
> solution would be to get an explicit permission per
case by every 
> individual user *before* deleting their trash folder.
> 

Would this not imply that a spam-assasin type solution would
also be 
illegal if it 'auto-deletes' detected spam?

-- 
Dominic Amann, Linux Based Solutions Ltd., <http://www.lbs.ca/>
	18 Candlewood Cr, Toronto, ON M3J 1G8
	Tel: (416) 678-2297
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On Wednesday 20 April 2005 05:42 am, Dominic Amann wrote:
> Simon Lange wrote:
> > Jeff Brenton wrote:
> >> The perfect solution to this is to send out
periodic "privacy notices"
> >> to users, pointing out that anything left on
the system, including mail
> >> left in
> >> the trash folder, is subject to seizure during
any official inquiry.
> >
> > does not work in germany. a federal law is a
federal law and sending
> > notices prior to violate against them is no
solution. even contract must
> > not violate (even in parts only) federal law.
> >
> > in germany you must not delete mails from other
users. the *only*
> > solution would be to get an explicit permission
per case by every
> > individual user *before* deleting their trash
folder.
>
> Would this not imply that a spam-assasin type solution
would also be
> illegal if it 'auto-deletes' detected spam?

Interesting.. that would seem to fit the law.. 


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[Note: I don't know law, I don't do law. IANAL. This is only
valid for 
Germany, perhaps not even there]

On Wednesday 20 April 2005 14:42, Dominic Amann wrote:
> in germany you must not delete mails from other users.
the *only*
> > solution would be to get an explicit permission
per case by every
> > individual user *before* deleting their trash
folder.
> Would this not imply that a spam-assasin type solution
would also be
> illegal if it 'auto-deletes' detected spam?

Mostly.

Summarising from an article in the German monthly
"Linux Magazin" [1] and my 
own inquiries:

0a. If it is your own mail, do whatever you want
0b. If it's not your mail, you can't touch it. You _must_
not look at it 
(except for correct delivery), you _must_ not change the
contents. You _must_ 
not suppress it

1. No deletion (auto-deleting users' trash cans should
probably be OK)
2. Automated spam- oder virus scanning only allowed as
opt-in-solution
3. If it does contain spam/viruses you _must_ not silently
delete the message. 
The only way out: assign it to a spam-folder. Which the user
has to empty 
himself any way he wants. Some people use another opt-in for
automatic 
deletion, I don't know if that's allowed.

4. If you are a company: just forbid your employees to do
private mail. Then 
all incoming mails are, by default, the company's, which you
can scan and 
throw away at will. This is a position that is mostly, but
not universally, 
accepted

If you think that's difficult to live with, you are right. A
university I know 
was unable to install a spam filter at their incoming line
due to these 
regulations (and boy, they'd have needed a *huge* trashcan).
If you're an 
ISP, it's living hell.

If you think it's cool that somebody's taking good care of
privacy, I tend to 
agree with you nonetheless. Come on over and we'll have a
beer.

[1] Fred Andresen: "Leeren verboten!", Linux
Magazin, September 2004, pp. 
78-79

-- 
With best regards,
Florian Weber

PGP key ID: A34C32F9
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Sorry for top-postins.

I can see the intention of the law makers, but I wonder if
there
will be any user who will be willing to underwrite the risk
that
he/she will be exposing the system...

I am betting, if you handed them a piece of paper to chose
whether
they would turn over their rights (to machine-inspect and
delete any
message) or underwriting the potential security risks
(damage other
peoples property/data), they would go for the former.

I bet this would work for Universities --I am not sure if
ISPs would
like to do that though.

>>Would this not imply that a spam-assasin type
solution would also be
>>illegal if it 'auto-deletes' detected spam?
> 
> Summarising from an article in the German monthly
"Linux Magazin" [1] and my 
> own inquiries:
> 
> 0a. If it is your own mail, do whatever you want
> 0b. If it's not your mail, you can't touch it. You
_must_ not look at it 
> (except for correct delivery), you _must_ not change
the contents. You _must_ 
> not suppress it
> 
> 1. No deletion (auto-deleting users' trash cans should
probably be OK)
> 2. Automated spam- oder virus scanning only allowed as
opt-in-solution
> 3. If it does contain spam/viruses you _must_ not
silently delete the message. 
> The only way out: assign it to a spam-folder. Which the
user has to empty 
> himself any way he wants. Some people use another
opt-in for automatic 
> deletion, I don't know if that's allowed.
> 
> 4. If you are a company: just forbid your employees to
do private mail. Then 
> all incoming mails are, by default, the company's,
which you can scan and 
> throw away at will. This is a position that is mostly,
but not universally, 
> accepted
> 
> If you think that's difficult to live with, you are
right. A university I know 
> was unable to install a spam filter at their incoming
line due to these 
> regulations (and boy, they'd have needed a *huge*
trashcan). If you're an 
> ISP, it's living hell.
> 
> If you think it's cool that somebody's taking good care
of privacy, I tend to 
> agree with you nonetheless. Come on over and we'll have
a beer.

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Micah Stevens writes:
> On Wednesday 20 April 2005 05:42 am, Dominic Amann
wrote:
>>  Simon Lange wrote:
>> > in germany you must not delete mails from
other users. the *only*
>>  > solution would be to get an explicit
permission per case by every
>>  > individual user *before* deleting their trash
folder.
>>
>>  Would this not imply that a spam-assasin type
solution would also be 
>>  illegal if it 'auto-deletes' detected spam?
>
> Interesting.. that would seem to fit the law..

Anyone who operates a mail service, has a contractual
relationship with 
its users, and may be subject to German law should really
consult a 
lawyer. Don't trust mailing list mavens.

(Have I consulted one? Yes I have. What Florian Weber writes
seems 
correct as far as it goes, but it's far from exhaustive.)

Arnt
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