Vista Resizing

Hello all. 

We've been using the ntfsprogs package here for many years
with great
success--in fact, it's a very crucial part of our automated
installation
scripts we use internally. However, with the influx of Vista
machines we
are seeing, resizing NTFS has become literally impossible.
I'll explain:

We are currently using the latest CVS checkout of ntfsprogs.
I have read
online that these should support Vista resizing fine and, in
fact, the
first few Vista machines we saw worked okay. Recently,
though, all of
the Sony, IBM/Lenovo, and Dell Vista machines we've received
simply do
not work consistently w/ any of the ntfsprogs.

Without ever even booting a machine into Windows once, we
netboot into a
small Linux image. At this point, we ask ntfsresize to
operate on the
Vista partition. It always says that the partition is dirty
and
recommends we run chkdsk--which we can do, to no effect. (I
also read
you have to use a non-Vista chkdsk, though I have no idea
how one would
go about acquiring that as my Windows knowledge--and that of
my
associates--is limited only to very basic usage.)

Sometimes, I can run ntfsfix followed immediately by
ntfsresize -f,
which will refuse to boot Windows the FIRST time, but will
work out okay
on the second windows boot IF and _only_ IF you choose
"Safe Mode
(Command Prompt)." This seems to work most of the time
w/ Sony machines.

My question is: would it be possible to get an official
developer
declaration of what should and should not work? We have
access to pretty
much any laptop conceivable, most of which are now coming
with Vista,
and would be more than willing to help test in any way
possible (this
includes via e-mail, phone, etc.) This obviously is a high
priority for
us and while many of our technicians are programmers in
their free time,
the majority of our work time is spent doing installation
and technical
support--so I'm not sure how much time we could devote to
actually
developing ntfsprogs further. Lincoln is prepared to offer a
discount to
anyone interested in (or in the market for) a new laptop if
we can get a
real fix or guidance for this. We won't need hand-holding or
anything,
our expertise is enough such that one or two keywords or a
simple
"here's the patch, make it happen" will do.  I would
even be willing
to write the required code, if the problem is understood
enough.

Thanks, and I hope this message isn't in violation of any
rules here, or
is out-of-place. We desperately want to avoid a commercial
solution if
possible...


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Hi,

On 11 May 2007, at 17:34, Jeremy L. Moles wrote:
> We are currently using the latest CVS checkout of
ntfsprogs. I have  
> read
> online that these should support Vista resizing fine
and, in fact, the
> first few Vista machines we saw worked okay. Recently,
though, all of
> the Sony, IBM/Lenovo, and Dell Vista machines we've
received simply do
> not work consistently w/ any of the ntfsprogs.
>
> Without ever even booting a machine into Windows once,
we netboot  
> into a
> small Linux image. At this point, we ask ntfsresize to
operate on the
> Vista partition. It always says that the partition is
dirty and
> recommends we run chkdsk--which we can do, to no
effect. (I also read
> you have to use a non-Vista chkdsk, though I have no
idea how one  
> would
> go about acquiring that as my Windows knowledge--and
that of my
> associates--is limited only to very basic usage.)

You likely are receving the laptops in a
hibernated/suspended state  
instead of a true shutdown state.  This is why the volumes
are dirty  
and why using ntfsresize totally screws up the volume and
why chkdsk  
does not help.

As an experiment to see if my guess is correct, before doing
the  
netboot, boot the laptop into the native on-disk Vista
installation,  
then shut it down (you can do this on the login screen or
once logged  
in, does not matter) by clicking on "Shut down
options" (this is the  
little arrow button on the right of the shutdown button when
not  
logged in and on the right of the lock button on the start
menu once  
logged in) and then choosing "shut down" from the
menu that appears.

By default when you click the start menu and from that you
click what  
looks like to be a "power off" button Vista
actually hibernates  
instead of shutting down.  That makes it look like Vista
takes hardly  
any time to start/shutdown but in reality it cheats by using
suspend  
to disk instead.

Now once the machine is shut down correctly, try your linux
netboot  
image and see if ntfsresize still complains...

The other point worthy of note is that Vista Ultimate at
least has a  
built-in NTFS resizer so you can use that instead of
Linux-NTFS  
ntfsresize then you know it will work.  Probably not what
you wanted  
to hear but it is worth mentioning because you may not be
aware of it...

Best regards,

	Anton
-- 
Anton Altaparmakov <aia21 at cam.ac.uk> (replace at
with )
Unix Support, Computing Service, University of Cambridge,
CB2 3QH, UK
Linux NTFS maintainer, http://www.linux-ntfs.org/




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First of all, thanks a ton for the response! 

On Fri, 2007-05-11 at 19:01 +0100, Anton Altaparmakov
wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 11 May 2007, at 17:34, Jeremy L. Moles wrote:
> > We are currently using the latest CVS checkout of
ntfsprogs. I have  
> > read
> > online that these should support Vista resizing
fine and, in fact, the
> > first few Vista machines we saw worked okay.
Recently, though, all of
> > the Sony, IBM/Lenovo, and Dell Vista machines
we've received simply do
> > not work consistently w/ any of the ntfsprogs.
> >
> > Without ever even booting a machine into Windows
once, we netboot  
> > into a
> > small Linux image. At this point, we ask
ntfsresize to operate on the
> > Vista partition. It always says that the partition
is dirty and
> > recommends we run chkdsk--which we can do, to no
effect. (I also read
> > you have to use a non-Vista chkdsk, though I have
no idea how one  
> > would
> > go about acquiring that as my Windows
knowledge--and that of my
> > associates--is limited only to very basic usage.)
> 
> You likely are receving the laptops in a
hibernated/suspended state  
> instead of a true shutdown state.  This is why the
volumes are dirty  
> and why using ntfsresize totally screws up the volume
and why chkdsk  
> does not help.
> 
> As an experiment to see if my guess is correct, before
doing the  
> netboot, boot the laptop into the native on-disk Vista
installation,  
> then shut it down (you can do this on the login screen
or once logged  
> in, does not matter) by clicking on "Shut down
options" (this is the  
> little arrow button on the right of the shutdown button
when not  
> logged in and on the right of the lock button on the
start menu once  
> logged in) and then choosing "shut down" from
the menu that appears.

Hmm, this is certainly something to investigate. However, we
have a new
policy (which we inform our customers of) of creating their
first user
for them, so that we can at least have access to the Vista
partition. It
hasn't yet changed the behavior to do a proper halt VS. just
using it
straight from the manufacturer. Regardless, I'll run back in
the
storeroom here in a bit and confirm.

> By default when you click the start menu and from that
you click what  
> looks like to be a "power off" button Vista
actually hibernates  
> instead of shutting down.  That makes it look like
Vista takes hardly  
> any time to start/shutdown but in reality it cheats by
using suspend  
> to disk instead.
> 
> Now once the machine is shut down correctly, try your
linux netboot  
> image and see if ntfsresize still complains...
> 
> The other point worthy of note is that Vista Ultimate
at least has a  
> built-in NTFS resizer so you can use that instead of
Linux-NTFS  
> ntfsresize then you know it will work.  Probably not
what you wanted  
> to hear but it is worth mentioning because you may not
be aware of it...

We investigated this as well, but I was unable to coax the
machine into
resizing adequately. Apparently there are all manner of
complex restore
and recovery options that I simply could not disable w/out
having more
advanced Windows admin knowledge than I do. If I remember
correctly,
something to do with swap (I disabled) and shadow files (I
believe I
also disabled).

> Best regards,

Thanks again for the response!

> 	Anton


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