Re: Indiana desktop UI spec - early draft

Calum Benson wrote:
> We're starting to document what the default desktop
configuration for  
> the Indiana 1.0 release should be, and naturally we'd
like your  
> feedback.
>
> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/d
esktop/uispecs/indiana-uispec/
>
> Right now it only covers panel and menu layout; more
sections will be  
> added over the next couple of days.  However, I'm sure
there's plenty  
> for you to get your teeth into already, e.g.:
>
> - One panel or two?
> - Launch menu or Apps/Places/System menu?
> - What applets/launchers on panels by default?
> - Icons (e.g. Home folder) on the desktop by default,
or empty desktop  
> by default?
> - GNOME or KD... no, let's not get into that one 
>
> Fire away...
>
>   
Feel free to edit the mailing lists if you reply to this,
I'm not sure 
firther conversation belongs on both lists.

That said, will applications installed by the new pkg(5)
system be able 
to insert themselves into the GNOME menus automatically
through some 
sort of pkg(5) action/SMF 'rebuild/merge' service like I've
been seeing 
described for other things (fonts, etc.)
on the pkg discuss list?

It seems like this functionality is a prime candidate for
the technology 
pkg(5) is proposing here.


              -Kyle


> Cheeri,
> Calum.
>
>   

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On 12 Mar 2008, at 16:30, Kyle McDonald wrote:
>
> That said, will applications installed by the new
pkg(5) system be  
> able to insert themselves into the GNOME menus
automatically through  
> some sort of pkg(5) action/SMF 'rebuild/merge' service
like I've  
> been seeing described for other things (fonts, etc.)
> on the pkg discuss list?

(pkg-discuss snipped from follow-ups, as the answer doesn't
really  
have anything to do with packaging...)

Yes, that should be possible.  The GNOME panel has always
been capable  
of monitoring the standard locations in which .desktop files
are  
installed, and updating the menus automatically as required.
We just  
haven't been able to take advantage of this in OpenSolaris
until very  
recently, because we were stuck with polling for changes
rather than  
having proper event notification.  But we should now be able
to use  
gamin to do this.

(On a related note, we do plan to update the spec to include
the menu  
locations of the most common downloadable apps, such as
OpenOffice etc.)

Cheeri,
Calum.

-- 
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer       Sun Microsystems
Ireland
mailto:calum.bensonsun.com            GNOME Desktop Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum
             +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun
Microsystems
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Hi Calum,

Calum Benson wrote:
> We're starting to document what the default desktop
configuration for  
> the Indiana 1.0 release should be, and naturally we'd
like your  
> feedback.
> 
> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/d
esktop/uispecs/indiana-uispec/
> 
> Right now it only covers panel and menu layout; more
sections will be  
> added over the next couple of days.  However, I'm sure
there's plenty  
> for you to get your teeth into already, e.g.:

Some quick observation.  Is there a reason why the launchers
are 
directly on the top panel as opposed to placing a
"Launchers List" 
applet on the panel?  I've found the "Launchers
List" applet to be quite 
helpful in helping to keep the launchers organized and
spaced out evenly.

Regarding 1 panel or 2, I find that 2, always visible"
panels makes the 
screen look too busy and takes too much screen real-estate. 
If one of 
them automatically retracts, then that problem goes away
somewhat.

I also don't see the point in cluttering panels with
needless menus if 
they're already available through the "Launch"
menu.

Thanks,
-Seb
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On Wed, 2008-03-12 at 16:16 +0000, Calum Benson wrote:
> We're starting to document what the default desktop
configuration for  
> the Indiana 1.0 release should be, and naturally we'd
like your  
> feedback.
> 
> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/d
esktop/uispecs/indiana-uispec/
> 
> Right now it only covers panel and menu layout; more
sections will be  
> added over the next couple of days.  However, I'm sure
there's plenty  
> for you to get your teeth into already, e.g.:
> 
> - One panel or two?
> - Launch menu or Apps/Places/System menu?
> - What applets/launchers on panels by default?

This may have been brought up before...

Why is thunderbird given higher visibility (by being in the
panel) over
evolution - the default gnome mail app?

Why do we ship two mail clients which cover basically the
same
functionality? I'd draw the parallel here between epiphany -
the default
gnome web browser and firefox.

-Mark

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On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 1:09 PM, Mark Phalan <mbpopensolaris.org> wrote:
>
>  On Wed, 2008-03-12 at 16:16 +0000, Calum Benson
wrote:
>  > We're starting to document what the default
desktop configuration for
>  > the Indiana 1.0 release should be, and naturally
we'd like your
>  > feedback.
>  >
>  > http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/d
esktop/uispecs/indiana-uispec/
>  >
>  > Right now it only covers panel and menu layout;
more sections will be
>  > added over the next couple of days.  However, I'm
sure there's plenty
>  > for you to get your teeth into already, e.g.:
>  >
>  > - One panel or two?
>  > - Launch menu or Apps/Places/System menu?
>  > - What applets/launchers on panels by default?
>
>  This may have been brought up before...
>
>  Why is thunderbird given higher visibility (by being
in the panel) over
>  evolution - the default gnome mail app?
>
>  Why do we ship two mail clients which cover basically
the same
>  functionality? I'd draw the parallel here between
epiphany - the default
>  gnome web browser and firefox.

That has always flabbergasted me as well.

Most users are going to be more familiar with Evolution
(since it is
"like MS Outlook") than Thunderbird.

Though I suppose that depends on whether you are talking
about Linux
users or users from other platforms.

-- 
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrus
ader.blogspot.com/

"To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is
even more so." -
Robert Orben
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Downloads folder on the desktop?

Calum Benson wrote:
> We're starting to document what the default desktop
configuration for  
> the Indiana 1.0 release should be, and naturally we'd
like your  
> feedback.
> 
> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/d
esktop/uispecs/indiana-uispec/
> 
> Right now it only covers panel and menu layout; more
sections will be  
> added over the next couple of days.  However, I'm sure
there's plenty  
> for you to get your teeth into already, e.g.:
> 
> - One panel or two?
> - Launch menu or Apps/Places/System menu?
> - What applets/launchers on panels by default?
> - Icons (e.g. Home folder) on the desktop by default,
or empty desktop  
> by default?
> - GNOME or KD... no, let's not get into that one 
> 
> Fire away...
> 
> Cheeri,
> Calum.
> 
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* Shawn Walker (swalkeropensolaris.org) wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 1:09 PM, Mark Phalan
<mbpopensolaris.org> wrote:
> >
> >  On Wed, 2008-03-12 at 16:16 +0000, Calum Benson
wrote:
> >  > We're starting to document what the default
desktop configuration for
> >  > the Indiana 1.0 release should be, and
naturally we'd like your
> >  > feedback.
> >  >
> >  > http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/d
esktop/uispecs/indiana-uispec/
> >  >
> >  > Right now it only covers panel and menu
layout; more sections will be
> >  > added over the next couple of days. 
However, I'm sure there's plenty
> >  > for you to get your teeth into already,
e.g.:
> >  >
> >  > - One panel or two?
> >  > - Launch menu or Apps/Places/System menu?
> >  > - What applets/launchers on panels by
default?
> >
> >  This may have been brought up before...
> >
> >  Why is thunderbird given higher visibility (by
being in the panel) over
> >  evolution - the default gnome mail app?
> >
> >  Why do we ship two mail clients which cover
basically the same
> >  functionality? I'd draw the parallel here between
epiphany - the default
> >  gnome web browser and firefox.
> 
> That has always flabbergasted me as well.
> 
> Most users are going to be more familiar with Evolution
(since it is
> "like MS Outlook") than Thunderbird.

Except:

a) Thunderbird is more widely available on other platforms
(windows/OS
X) and so I would say it's got a far greater following.
b) Evolution isn't the most solid of applications (in both
my experience
and anecdotal evidence gained from many a weblog).

> Though I suppose that depends on whether you are
talking about Linux
> users or users from other platforms.

Right.

Cheers,

-- 
Glenn
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Xfce desktop?

It's really nice on Sun Ray servers.  In my experience, it
was
a significant boost in performance which all of my users
noticed
and appreciated.  That was a while ago, and I only had about
8
users on a V240...  but still, it was nice.  

Dale


Calum Benson wrote:
> We're starting to document what the default desktop
configuration for  
> the Indiana 1.0 release should be, and naturally we'd
like your  
> feedback.
> 
> http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/d
esktop/uispecs/indiana-uispec/
> 
> Right now it only covers panel and menu layout; more
sections will be  
> added over the next couple of days.  However, I'm sure
there's plenty  
> for you to get your teeth into already, e.g.:
> 
> - One panel or two?
> - Launch menu or Apps/Places/System menu?
> - What applets/launchers on panels by default?
> - Icons (e.g. Home folder) on the desktop by default,
or empty desktop  
> by default?
> - GNOME or KD... no, let's not get into that one 
> 
> Fire away...
> 
> Cheeri,
> Calum.
> 
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Shawn Walker wrote:
> That has always flabbergasted me as well.
> 
> Most users are going to be more familiar with Evolution
(since it is
> "like MS Outlook") than Thunderbird.
> 
> Though I suppose that depends on whether you are
talking about Linux
> users or users from other platforms.

Speaking for myself only, I used Evolution for years on
Solaris, and I 
dropped it in favor Thunderbird due to stability issues. 
Evolution was 
at the time simply too slow (I have a huge number of nested
IMAP folders 
with a huge number of messages), and had too many important
bugs related 
to both stability and usability that no-one was willing to
fix.  I 
haven't used it since (it has been a few years), so maybe
that has 
changed since then.  I just did a quick tour again just now,
and it 
doesn't look like much has changed.  It took over 45 seconds
to load a 
single small ascii-only message buried in a large IMAP
folder, and four 
minutes for the frozen Evolution main window to disappear
after I did 
File->Quit.

Thunderbird on the other hand is rock-solid, very fast for
my workload, 
easy to use, and as Glenn mentioned already, more widely
used.

-Seb
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On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Glenn Lagasse
<Glenn.Lagassesun.com> wrote:
> * Shawn Walker (swalkeropensolaris.org) wrote:
>  > On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 1:09 PM, Mark Phalan
<mbpopensolaris.org> wrote:
>  > >
>  > >  On Wed, 2008-03-12 at 16:16 +0000, Calum
Benson wrote:
>  > >  > We're starting to document what the
default desktop configuration for
>  > >  > the Indiana 1.0 release should be, and
naturally we'd like your
>  > >  > feedback.
>  > >  >
>  > >  > http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/d
esktop/uispecs/indiana-uispec/
>  > >  >
>  > >  > Right now it only covers panel and
menu layout; more sections will be
>  > >  > added over the next couple of days. 
However, I'm sure there's plenty
>  > >  > for you to get your teeth into
already, e.g.:
>  > >  >
>  > >  > - One panel or two?
>  > >  > - Launch menu or Apps/Places/System
menu?
>  > >  > - What applets/launchers on panels by
default?
>  > >
>  > >  This may have been brought up before...
>  > >
>  > >  Why is thunderbird given higher visibility
(by being in the panel) over
>  > >  evolution - the default gnome mail app?
>  > >
>  > >  Why do we ship two mail clients which cover
basically the same
>  > >  functionality? I'd draw the parallel here
between epiphany - the default
>  > >  gnome web browser and firefox.
>  >
>  > That has always flabbergasted me as well.
>  >
>  > Most users are going to be more familiar with
Evolution (since it is
>  > "like MS Outlook") than Thunderbird.
>
>  Except:
>
>  a) Thunderbird is more widely available on other
platforms (windows/OS
>  X) and so I would say it's got a far greater
following.

>  b) Evolution isn't the most solid of applications (in
both my experience
>  and anecdotal evidence gained from many a weblog).

Please don't take this as directed at you:

Bugs should never be a reason to excuse promoting an
application. The
point is that GNOME as a platform has chosen Evolution.

I have used Evolution for years; since the early days when
Ximian
GNOME was popular.

To me, this is about the platform.

If you choose the GNOME platform, you get everything that is
part of it.

If part of the platform is deficient, either ship it, or
don't.

I remember all too well the stability problems that Mozilla
and
Thunderbird had for a long time, but that never stopped
folks from
shipping it.

Either way, the current choice is something that might be
considered
offensive to many developers that contribute to Evolution
and is
contrary, in my view, to embracing a platform of choice.

Evolution has many advantages beyond a mail client due to
its data
server and integration with the entire platform.

Pushing users towards Thunderbird is pushing them towards an
inferior
experience integration-wise.

-- 
Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst
http://binarycrus
ader.blogspot.com/

"To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is
even more so." -
Robert Orben
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