Why I'm giving up on Django

James Bennett wrote:
> Tracebacks are a really hard thing to handle well in an
application
> stack with more than a couple of components; generally
the debug pages
> are nice, though, because they give you the local vars
at each level
> -- when (as is often the case) an error occurred
because some code
> didn't raise an exception but *did* do something it
shouldn't have,
> having the local vars can be a lifesaver.

Here's my anecdote on that.

Even though it was literally staring me in the face, it took
me AGES to
discover that the error dump page is actually interactive
and has
little sections that expand and collapse.
I kept running into error messages which told me about
exceptions in
the Django source code (this is the top part of the error
page) and I
kept thinking "well, where's the bloody use in that???
I want to know
what MY error was! Grmbl.".

It took me at least two weeks (yes, sometimes I really *am*
that dense)
until I scrolled down and explored and figured out that
there was the
information that I had been wanting all along.
Somehow, the styles, fonts and layout choices of the error
page (lots
of text, lots of grey) made it totally non-intuitive for me
that it was
interactive.

Oh, well.

Daniel


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> I kept running into error messages which told me about
> exceptions in the Django source code (this is the top
part of
> the error page) and I kept thinking "well, where's
the bloody
> use in that??? I want to know what MY error was!
Grmbl.".

Django your easily find out if a module name in it's output 
starts with django. If yes, it could use CSS to make it
lighter 
or gray or whatever.

In this case, the user-modules (e.g. urls.py or views.py)
would 
stand out.

Easier for the eye to catch 

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daniel.tietzegmail.com wrote:
>
> Here's my anecdote on that.
>
> Even though it was literally staring me in the face, it
took me AGES to
> discover that the error dump page is actually
interactive and has
> little sections that expand and collapse.
> I kept running into error messages which told me about
exceptions in
> the Django source code (this is the top part of the
error page) and I
> kept thinking "well, where's the bloody use in
that??? I want to know
> what MY error was! Grmbl.".
>
> It took me at least two weeks (yes, sometimes I really
*am* that dense)
> until I scrolled down and explored and figured out that
there was the
> information that I had been wanting all along.
> Somehow, the styles, fonts and layout choices of the
error page (lots
> of text, lots of grey) made it totally non-intuitive
for me that it was
> interactive.

You're not the only one. It took me quite a while to figure
that out,
too. In fact, I only figured it out because I saw someone
post a
screenshot to a blog one time and I was thinking "why
does his
traceback show more source lines and the variable values?!
Its not
fair!"

I was always afraid to admit that it took me so long to
figure it out.
But now that you've come out of the closet...

I agree that the UI could be tweaked to make it more
obvious, like
changing "Local vars" to "Click here to show
local vars". I also don't
understand why the code and variables are hidden by default
(which is
where I want to look 99% of the time) and the request and
settings
information is expanded (where I end up finding the answer
about 1% of
the time).

But pointing out these little things is the first part of
the process
of making Django better. And it _does_ keep getting better,
even over
the short period of time that I've been using it.

-Dave


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DavidA wrote:
> I agree that the UI could be tweaked to make it more
obvious, like
> changing "Local vars" to "Click here to
show local vars".

This will just make this pile of text look more scary . You and 
Daniel didn't read it in the first place so changing text
won't help.

But what will help is using either actual standard buttons
that are 
recognizable as being controls for clicking or styling text
to look like 
a button (with colored 3-d looking border).

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That was actually a conscious decision to keep from needing
support
images for the debug pages. I wanted them to be completely
self-contained, which is why we used the unicode glyph for
the
disclosure triangle (a pretty universal UI indicator) to
indicate that
those sections could be expanded.

On 9/29/06, Ivan Sagalaev <Maniacsoftwaremaniacs.org>
wrote:
>
> DavidA wrote:
> > I agree that the UI could be tweaked to make it
more obvious, like
> > changing "Local vars" to "Click
here to show local vars".
>
> This will just make this pile of text look more scary
. You
and
> Daniel didn't read it in the first place so changing
text won't help.
>
> But what will help is using either actual standard
buttons that are
> recognizable as being controls for clicking or styling
text to look like
> a button (with colored 3-d looking border).
>
> >
>

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On Sep 29, 2006, at 11:56 AM, Wilson Miner wrote:
>
> That was actually a conscious decision to keep from
needing support
> images for the debug pages. I wanted them to be
completely
> self-contained, which is why we used the unicode glyph
for the
> disclosure triangle (a pretty universal UI indicator)
to indicate that
> those sections could be expanded.



When I first saw them, I thought they were bullets rather
than  
disclosure triangles. Mainly because the lines with these
triangles  
are spaced further apart. Having used the Mac for quite
awhile, items  
with disclosure triangles are adjacent, items that are
disclosed are  
further apart with a downward arrow.

Don



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Wilson Miner wrote:
> That was actually a conscious decision to keep from
needing support
> images for the debug pages. I wanted them to be
completely
> self-contained, which is why we used the unicode glyph
for the
> disclosure triangle (a pretty universal UI indicator)
to indicate that
> those sections could be expanded.

I didn't propose any images. I mean either this:

     <button onclick="..">Local
vars</button>

or this:

     <a href=".." onclick=".."
class="button">Local vars</a>

     a.button {
       border-style: solid; border-width: 1px;
       border-color: #DDD #666 #666 #DDD;
     }

I prefer an actual <button> since it's more accessible
and more 
recognizable.

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