python mvc framework and java mvc framework

Hi,

For personnal information and curiosity, I was looking at
the
available java mvc web framework out there.

One thing that I found particular, is that the dynamic
language camp
market their framework as productive environnement, easy and
so. While
the java framework emphasis on the enterprise-quality
application.

On the other hand, java web framework look quite complicated
with lot
of xml and manual configuration with no real advantage. Java
verbosity
and static checking may help to find bug earlier than with
python.
Python doesn't force you to include exception, assertion
etc.. which
may lead to spent more time debuging or delevering
application that
broke more often.

My question is to someone who actually try both, are they
similar in
productivity and enterprise quality?

Francis


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On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 00:53:45 -0000
Francis <lav.francisgmail.com> wrote:

  Hi,

I'm quite new to django but have a little insight into
java.

> On the other hand, java web framework look quite
complicated with lot
> of xml and manual configuration with no real advantage.
Java verbosity

Well, it depends. There are tons of java frameworks. Some of
them need
XML configuration some of them don't but most of them will
allow you to
use it. The modern ones will allow you to use annotations
which is
quite terse way of expressing configuration. The main
difference here is
that django uses 'convention over configuration' while the
java
most frameworks don't. Then when you talk about java web
frameworks it's
usually really just the web framework without persistence
or
authentication, etc. So it's not a full stack. In that world
you combine
the components you like into your application while django,
as far as I
can see, gives you one option for all of these.

You'll need some XML for the servlet container (web
application server)
which you don't really use with django. In the java world
you have a
separate server that hosts all of the web applications for a
given
machine. Some of them may use one framework some of them may
be just
plain servlets. You can deploy them on the same server
without any
problem. You can even apply independent pre/post processors
(so
called servlet filters). They are like django middlewares
(if I got that
right) but they're standard components and can be plugged
in
without touching the application. This all needs to be wired
together
somehow.

You can host multiple applications in django but as far as I
could see
from the mailing list you'll have some problem if you want
to have two
different django instances running under mod_python.

So the java solutions need more configuration work but they
might be more
flexible in some cases. And don't forget that you're
comparing a set of
components (java) against a full stack (django). The
configuration work
can be alleviated by pre-assembling a full stack from java
components.
There are projects that do just that (e.g. appfuse).

> and static checking may help to find bug earlier than
with python.
> Python doesn't force you to include exception,
assertion etc.. which
> may lead to spent more time debuging or delevering
application that
> broke more often.

It's a matter of taste. I kind of like static type checking
some people
don't. I also like having to declare exceptions. There is a
more-or-less
valid argument that you have to write unit tests anyway, no
matter if
you use a statically or dynamically typed language, and
those tests are
supposed to catch (most of the) type errors.

> My question is to someone who actually try both, are
they similar in
> productivity and enterprise quality?

For quality you'll need the unit tests. I'm not sure if you
need to write
more tests for python to make up for the lack of static type
checking or
not. I would think that you should, but I don't have enough
experience
yet. But the quality can be assured by good tests and they
are needed in
both cases.

I can't really tell anything about the productivity as I'm
really slow in
django  bacause I
know very little yet. In java you have to use the
right tools and components to be productive and that's not
an easy task.
On the other hand my feeling is that if you know your
environment then
there isn't such a big difference between the two. (I know
it's quite a
rebell view here  and I'm
actually using django to test this claim.)
Java frameworks have a lot to learn/steal from django to
become more
productive. E.g. I don't think that there is any framework
out there that
support the generic view concept of django.

If you don't have any background then you'll probably better
off starting
with django because it has everything put together.

  atleta

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On 10/19/07, Laszlo Marai <googleatleta.hu> wrote:
> So the java solutions need more configuration work but
they might be more
> flexible in some cases. And don't forget that you're
comparing a set of
> components (java) against a full stack (django). The
configuration work
> can be alleviated by pre-assembling a full stack from
java components.
> There are projects that do just that (e.g. appfuse).

It's worth pointing out that in the Python world, WSGI[1] is
meant to
provide a single, interoperable standard for web
applications; the
idea is that no matter what framework you're using (or even
if you're
not using a framework), if you speak WSGI you'll be able to
run under
any WSGI-compliant web server and talk to any other WSGI
applications
or use any available WSGI middlewares.

Django speaks WSGI well enough to run as a WSGI application,
though
there is at least one wart I know of that we need to iron
out (dealing
with SCRIPT_NAME so that Django can be arbitrarily rooted
inside a
site without needing to do any special handling of URLs).
I'd also
like at some point to add at least basic support for Django
to act as
a WSGI server to make it easier to mix and match things
(it'd be
fairly straightforward to write a generic view which hosts a
WSGI
application, I think).


[1] http://www.p
ython.org/dev/peps/pep-0333/


-- 
"Bureaucrat Conrad, you are technically correct -- the
best kind of correct."

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On 20-Oct-07, at 7:22 AM, Laszlo Marai wrote:

> You can host multiple applications in django but as far
as I could see
> from the mailing list you'll have some problem if you
want to have two
> different django instances running under mod_python.

not so. There have been reports of over 70 django instances
running  
under mod_python in the same server. I have 12 in one server
without  
problems.

-- 

regards
kg
http://lawgon.livejourn
al.com
http://nrcfosshelpline
.in/web/



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On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 07:40:27 +0530
Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgonthenilgiris.com> wrote:

> > You can host multiple applications in django but
as far as I could see
> > from the mailing list you'll have some problem if
you want to have two
> > different django instances running under
mod_python.
> 
> not so. There have been reports of over 70 django
instances running  
> under mod_python in the same server. I have 12 in one
server without  
> problems.

Wasn't there a question here about mod_python a few days ago
where the
solution was to configure different interpreters for each
django
instances? I might have misunderstood the problem.

  atleta

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On 20-Oct-07, at 7:46 AM, Laszlo Marai wrote:

>>
>> not so. There have been reports of over 70 django
instances running
>> under mod_python in the same server. I have 12 in
one server without
>> problems.
>
> Wasn't there a question here about mod_python a few
days ago where the
> solution was to configure different interpreters for
each django
> instances? I might have misunderstood the problem.

yes there was. There are several threads on this. But the
conclusion  
is that these were the result of improper configuration of
the  
servers in question, caches and things like that. I have not
seen any  
reports of persistent problems. I had one case of two sites
that were  
nearly identical - and at times in admin, fields from one
site would  
appear on the index of the other. But this was when both
sites were  
open at the same time in firefox tabs - so I put it down to
browser  
cache. There has been no report from my users (each of whom
can only  
access their sites) of any crossover.

-- 

regards
kg
http://lawgon.livejourn
al.com
http://nrcfosshelpline
.in/web/



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In the java world, one of the more interesting approach is
grails.

Http://grails.codehaus.org

It uses proven java technology such as hibernate for ORM and
spring  
for MVC. And glue everything together using a jvm dynamic
language  
called groovy.

It's worth checking out if you want to explore java side of
things .

On Oct 19, 2007, at 8:53 PM, Francis <lav.francisgmail.com> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> For personnal information and curiosity, I was looking
at the
> available java mvc web framework out there.
>
> One thing that I found particular, is that the dynamic
language camp
> market their framework as productive environnement,
easy and so. While
> the java framework emphasis on the enterprise-quality
application.
>
> On the other hand, java web framework look quite
complicated with lot
> of xml and manual configuration with no real advantage.
Java verbosity
> and static checking may help to find bug earlier than
with python.
> Python doesn't force you to include exception,
assertion etc.. which
> may lead to spent more time debuging or delevering
application that
> broke more often.
>
> My question is to someone who actually try both, are
they similar in
> productivity and enterprise quality?
>
> Francis
>
>
> >

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One of those threads was mine and I just wanted to say that
I'm now
happily hosting three django projects using apache virutal
hosts on
the same server with no problems - my problem was only an
apache
configuration file issue having nothing to do with django.

On Oct 20, 10:28 am, Kenneth Gonsalves <law...thenilgiris.com> wrote:
> On 20-Oct-07, at 7:46 AM, Laszlo Marai wrote:
>
>
>
> >> not so. There have been reports of over 70
django instances running
> >> under mod_python in the same server. I have 12
in one server without
> >> problems.
>
> > Wasn't there a question here about mod_python a
few days ago where the
> > solution was to configure different interpreters
for each django
> > instances? I might have misunderstood the
problem.
>
> yes there was. There are several threads on this. But
the conclusion
> is that these were the result of improper configuration
of the
> servers in question, caches and things like that. I
have not seen any
> reports of persistent problems. I had one case of two
sites that were
> nearly identical - and at times in admin, fields from
one site would
> appear on the index of the other. But this was when
both sites were
> open at the same time in firefox tabs - so I put it
down to browser
> cache. There has been no report from my users (each of
whom can only
> access their sites) of any crossover.
>
> --
>
> regards
> kghttp://lawgon.livejournal.comhttp://nrcfosshelpline.i
n/web/


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Hello,

> My question is to someone who actually try both, are
they similar in
> productivity and enterprise quality?

I've used several Java frameworks, and I've been using
Django for
quite a while in an large commercial setting; I find myself
*much*
more productive with Django, and as for something being
'enterprise'
quality, I've found from experience that the technology you
build
enterprise software on is entirely irrelevant; the quality
of the
programmers who write the software is much more important.

Classing certain platforms as 'enterprise' (*is* there a
definition of
that word yet that anyone can agree on?) is a crutch often
used by bad
programmers or bad managers to justify the increasing costs
of
employing a large amount of monkeys at a large amount of
typewriters.

--Jon

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