French quotes treated as parentheses

The French quotes (« and ») do have a `parentheses'
syntax.  This has a
rather negative effect in German texts, since these use
_reversed_
French quotes:

    Ich sagte: »Emacs ist toll!«
   (I said: "Emacs is great!")

The result is that they are wrongly highlighted with
show-paren-mode on,
and "Mismatched parentheses" error messages
appearing in the echo
area.  I finally managed to work around that by putting

(modify-syntax-entry (string-to-char "»")
"(")
(modify-syntax-entry (string-to-char "«")
")")

into my .emacs, but would it not be better to give the
French quotes a
more neutral syntax (say punctuation), to not discriminate
German
against French users?






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* Sven Joachim (2006-07-28) writes:

> The French quotes (« and ») do have a `parentheses'
syntax.  This has a
> rather negative effect in German texts, since these use
_reversed_
> French quotes:
[...]
> but would it not be better to give the French quotes a
> more neutral syntax (say punctuation), to not
discriminate German
> against French users?

There was an extensive discussion about this problem on the
list
which, IIRC, did not reach a conclusion.  Maybe somebody can
find it
in the archives.

FWIW, in AUCTeX we have

  (modify-syntax-entry ?«  "." 
TeX-mode-syntax-table)
  (modify-syntax-entry ?»  "." 
TeX-mode-syntax-table))

-- 
Ralf


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Ralf Angeli wrote:

> There was an extensive discussion about this problem on
the list
> which, IIRC, did not reach a conclusion.  Maybe
somebody can find it
> in the archives.

I tried to find it via the search form, but to no avail.
Does anybody remember when that discussion was?

> FWIW, in AUCTeX we have
> 
>   (modify-syntax-entry ?«  "." 
TeX-mode-syntax-table)
>   (modify-syntax-entry ?»  "." 
TeX-mode-syntax-table))

According to the AUCTeX ChangeLog, you made this change on
2004-12-01.  Was the discussion around that time?

Thanks,

Sven



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* Sven Joachim (2006-07-28) writes:

> Ralf Angeli wrote:
>
>> There was an extensive discussion about this
problem on the list
>> which, IIRC, did not reach a conclusion.  Maybe
somebody can find it
>> in the archives.
>
> I tried to find it via the search form, but to no
avail.
> Does anybody remember when that discussion was?

It was on emacs-pretest-bug.  The first message was sent on
March 9th,
2005 and had the subject "character syntax fixes
needed".

You can find the thread at
<URL:http://thread
.gmane.org/rzqd5u9irrz.fsfdpcsport.dl.ac.uk>.

>> FWIW, in AUCTeX we have
>> 
>>   (modify-syntax-entry ?«  "." 
TeX-mode-syntax-table)
>>   (modify-syntax-entry ?»  "." 
TeX-mode-syntax-table))
>
> According to the AUCTeX ChangeLog, you made this change
on
> 2004-12-01.  Was the discussion around that time?

That depends on your timeframe.

-- 
Ralf


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    The result is that they are wrongly highlighted with
show-paren-mode on,
    and "Mismatched parentheses" error messages
appearing in the echo
    area.  I finally managed to work around that by putting

    (modify-syntax-entry (string-to-char "»")
"(")
    (modify-syntax-entry (string-to-char "«")
")")

    into my .emacs, but would it not be better to give the
French quotes a
    more neutral syntax (say punctuation), to not
discriminate German
    against French users?

I think it would be better to set up a minor mode to switch
to German
syntax, and connect this with a language environment.

Handa, what do you think?


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Richard Stallman <rmsgnu.org> writes:

>     The result is that they are wrongly highlighted
with show-paren-mode on,
>     and "Mismatched parentheses" error
messages appearing in the echo
>     area.  I finally managed to work around that by
putting
>
>     (modify-syntax-entry (string-to-char
"»") "(")
>     (modify-syntax-entry (string-to-char
"«") ")")
>
>     into my .emacs, but would it not be better to give
the French quotes a
>     more neutral syntax (say punctuation), to not
discriminate German
>     against French users?
>
> I think it would be better to set up a minor mode to
switch to German
> syntax, and connect this with a language environment.

That's pretty tough, given that the German speaking Swiss
tend to use
a different direction from the Germans themselves.

It is really pretty messy.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum


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David Kastrup wrote:
> Richard Stallman <rmsgnu.org> writes:

>> I think it would be better to set up a minor mode
to switch to German
>> syntax, and connect this with a language
environment.
> 
> That's pretty tough, given that the German speaking
Swiss tend to use
> a different direction from the Germans themselves.

Yes, and there is no special language environment for Swiss
German ...
My vote goes to using punctuation syntax for these quotes.



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On 28/07/06, David Kastrup <dakgnu.org> wrote:
> Richard Stallman <rmsgnu.org> writes:
>
> >     The result is that they are wrongly
highlighted with show-paren-mode on,
> >     and "Mismatched parentheses" error
messages appearing in the echo
> >     area.  I finally managed to work around that
by putting
> >
> >     (modify-syntax-entry (string-to-char
"»") "(")
> >     (modify-syntax-entry (string-to-char
"«") ")")
> >
> >     into my .emacs, but would it not be better to
give the French quotes a
> >     more neutral syntax (say punctuation), to not
discriminate German
> >     against French users?
> >
> > I think it would be better to set up a minor mode
to switch to German
> > syntax, and connect this with a language
environment.
>
> That's pretty tough, given that the German speaking
Swiss tend to use
> a different direction from the Germans themselves.
>
> It is really pretty messy.

Right. Other quote symbols do not use paranthesis syntax.
And, as
previously stated, different locales mix and match them in
all kinds
of ways. E.g. in Denmark French quotes are used »like this«,
in Sweden
they are used »like this». In Sweden, double quotes are
similarly used
"like this", whereas in Germany an extra symbol
is used „like this".

-- 
Sven Axelsson


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    > I think it would be better to set up a minor mode
to switch to German
    > syntax, and connect this with a language
environment.

    That's pretty tough, given that the German speaking
Swiss tend to use
    a different direction from the Germans themselves.

That doesn't really make it any harder, it just calls for
some differences in the commands to set things up.


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    Yes, and there is no special language environment for
Swiss German ...

Perhaps this means there ought to be one.


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