Ars Technica: Prof replaces term papers with Wikipedia contributions, suffering ensues

>From ArsTechnica
<htt
p://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071030-prof-replaces-ter
m-papers-with-wikipedia-contributions.html>

"The Wikipedia community, however, was not as
impressed. One article
didn't survive for 24 hours following its introduction, and
four
additional ones were ultimately deleted following extensive
discussion, their contents merged into existing entries.
Groom also
noted that some of the comments in the ensuing discussions
"were
delivered rudely.""

Can anybody provide me with links to these discussions and
(deleted)
pages? I tried searching, but all I could find was Martha
Groom's
userpage <http:/
/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mjgroom>.

-- 
Utkarshraj Atmaram
http://utcursch.wordpre
ss.com
http://en.
wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Utcursch

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On 10/30/07, Utkarshraj Atmaram <utcurschgmail.com> wrote:
>
> "The Wikipedia community, however, was not as
impressed. One article
> didn't survive for 24 hours following its introduction,
and four
> additional ones were ultimately deleted following
extensive
> discussion, their contents merged into existing
entries. Groom also
> noted that some of the comments in the ensuing
discussions "were
> delivered rudely.""
>
> Can anybody provide me with links to these discussions
and (deleted)
> pages? I tried searching, but all I could find was
Martha Groom's
> userpage <http:/
/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mjgroom>.
>
> I don't see any mention at [[Wikipedia:School and
university projects]] -
but that's pretty hard to find anyway.

University assignments as Wikipedia articles are obviously
problematic for
us. The main problems I've come across with them:
 - They're on very specific topics that cut across some
existing articles
but not in any logical or useful way
 - They use totally different conventions for referencing
etc
 - Since they're delivered monolithically, it's very hard to
mould them into
something more useful. We have no input until all 5000 words
have been
dumped in our lap.
 - The tone and goal of a student paper (often to argue a
point, or to
demonstrate some original research or amazing brilliance on
the part of the
student) isn't really compatible with our goals (to explain
something as
simply and usefully as possible).

The idea is noble, but without a bit of thought about how
the paper is going
to fit in with Wikipedia, it's a bit like donating an
elephant to a charity.

Incidentally, the whole Category:Sustainable development is
pretty bad. Lots
of rather dubious articles on dubious topics, with apparent
COI and general
crackpottery.

Steve
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On 30/10/2007, Steve Bennett <stevagewpgmail.com> wrote:

> University assignments as Wikipedia articles are
obviously problematic for
> us. The main problems I've come across with them:
>  - They're on very specific topics that cut across some
existing articles
> but not in any logical or useful way
>  - They use totally different conventions for
referencing etc
>  - Since they're delivered monolithically, it's very
hard to mould them into
> something more useful. We have no input until all 5000
words have been
> dumped in our lap.
>  - The tone and goal of a student paper (often to argue
a point, or to
> demonstrate some original research or amazing
brilliance on the part of the
> student) isn't really compatible with our goals (to
explain something as
> simply and usefully as possible).
>
> The idea is noble, but without a bit of thought about
how the paper is going
> to fit in with Wikipedia, it's a bit like donating an
elephant to a charity.

A white elephant, indeed. Except that it's counterproductive
for the
donor, as well...

In general, I'd go so far as to say that our first reaction
to someone
suggesting something like this should be to *discourage* it
- it isn't
that we don't like the idea of more contributions, but the
fact that
we have our own routine and our own direction means that
the
contributions tend not to get dealt with in a very helpful
manner as
far as the institution's concerned. They may be deleted out
of hand,
they may be swiftly rewritten, moved to a different name,
reverted...
any number of things that make it hard to determine if your
students
actually did the work.

-- 
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.graydunelm.org.uk

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On 30/10/2007, Andrew Gray <shimgraygmail.com> wrote:
> On 30/10/2007, Steve Bennett <stevagewpgmail.com> wrote:

> > The idea is noble, but without a bit of thought
about how the paper is going
> > to fit in with Wikipedia, it's a bit like donating
an elephant to a charity.

> A white elephant, indeed. Except that it's
counterproductive for the
> donor, as well...
> In general, I'd go so far as to say that our first
reaction to someone
> suggesting something like this should be to
*discourage* it - it isn't
> that we don't like the idea of more contributions, but
the fact that
> we have our own routine and our own direction means
that the
> contributions tend not to get dealt with in a very
helpful manner as
> far as the institution's concerned. They may be deleted
out of hand,
> they may be swiftly rewritten, moved to a different
name, reverted...
> any number of things that make it hard to determine if
your students
> actually did the work.


Mmm. I do like the fact that significant numbers of the
contributions
actually stuck. And that the students got to deal with
interacting
with real people in the real world on a real project.

I can see something like this working if the area is
carefully
selected. There's little low-hanging fruit left, as we've
noted here
before - but any WikiProject will have endless lists of red
links just
waiting for someone to do the legwork to research and write
an
article. Someone with university-level research facilities
should be
able to do a much better job than from a mere Googling, in
not much
more time.

Possible approach: find a WikiProject that you know the
research
material will be there for. Set the students to work filling
out those
requested article links.

Another approach: see all those lists of missing
encyclopedic
articles? Same thing: research and summary.

This would add lots of good and useful encyclopedic content
without
running much risk of getting up Wikipedians' noses or
horrifying the
students or their professor.


- d.

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On 10/30/07, David Gerard <dgerardgmail.com> wrote:
On 10/30/07, Utkarshraj Atmaram <utcurschgmail.com> wrote:
> > Can anybody provide me with links to these
discussions and (deleted)
> > pages? I tried searching, but all I could find was
Martha Groom's
> > userpage <http:/
/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mjgroom>.
>
> I can see something like this working if the area is
carefully
> selected. There's little low-hanging fruit left, as
we've noted here
> before - but any WikiProject will have endless lists of
red links just
> waiting for someone to do the legwork to research and
write an
> article. Someone with university-level research
facilities should be
> able to do a much better job than from a mere Googling,
in not much
> more time.

Just got links to two articles, via "Students Find That
Wikipedians
Are Tougher Graders Than Their
Professor"<http://chronicle.com/wiredcampus/index.php?id=2497>. The
articles were created in December 2006.

Deforestation during the Roman period
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_dur
ing_the_Roman_period

1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1
491:_New_Revelations_of_the_Americas_Before_Columbus

Both the articles are quite good.

Look at the first version of the article "Deforestation
during the
Roman period" (user's only mainspace edit) -- great
work for a first
edit:
http://en.wiki
pedia.org/w/index.php?title=Deforestation_during_the_Roman_p
eriod&oldid=94219478

-- 
Utkarshraj Atmaram
http://utcursch.wordpre
ss.com
http://utcursch.blogspot
.com
http://en.
wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Utcursch

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On 30/10/2007, Utkarshraj Atmaram <utcurschgmail.com> wrote:

> Just got links to two articles, via "Students Find
That Wikipedians
> Are Tougher Graders Than Their
> Professor"<http://chronicle.com/wiredcampus/index.php?id=2497>. The
> articles were created in December 2006.
> Deforestation during the Roman period
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_dur
ing_the_Roman_period
> 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1
491:_New_Revelations_of_the_Americas_Before_Columbus
> Both the articles are quite good.
> Look at the first version of the article
"Deforestation during the
> Roman period" (user's only mainspace edit) --
great work for a first
> edit:
> http://en.wiki
pedia.org/w/index.php?title=Deforestation_during_the_Roman_p
eriod&oldid=94219478


Oh yeah. I think Andrew Lih is being somewhat pessimistic of
the
potential of a properly-directed class project.

In any case, I suspect we'll be unable to stop professors
from
assigning Wikipedia article-writing as a project. So
directing people
to our many lists of red links may be a way to turn the
unavoidable
problem to our advantage.


- d.

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On 30/10/2007, Andrew Gray <shimgraygmail.com> wrote:
> In general, I'd go so far as to say that our first
reaction to someone
> suggesting something like this should be to
*discourage* it - it isn't
> that we don't like the idea of more contributions, but
the fact that
> we have our own routine and our own direction means
that the
> contributions tend not to get dealt with in a very
helpful manner as
> far as the institution's concerned.

So we should help them plan their programs in ways that take
this into account.

>They may be deleted out of hand,
> they may be swiftly rewritten, moved to a different
name, reverted...
> any number of things that make it hard to determine if
your students
> actually did the work.


I think it is safe to assume that you are required to submit
the work
to the Dr as well as wikipedia.

-- 
geni

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Quoting David Gerard <dgerardgmail.com>:

> On 30/10/2007, Utkarshraj Atmaram <utcurschgmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just got links to two articles, via "Students
Find That Wikipedians
>> Are Tougher Graders Than Their
>> Professor"<http://chronicle.com/wiredcampus/index.php?id=2497>. The
>> articles were created in December 2006.
>> Deforestation during the Roman period
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_dur
ing_the_Roman_period
>> 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before
Columbus
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1
491:_New_Revelations_of_the_Americas_Before_Columbus
>> Both the articles are quite good.
>> Look at the first version of the article
"Deforestation during the
>> Roman period" (user's only mainspace edit) --
great work for a first
>> edit:
>> http://en.wiki
pedia.org/w/index.php?title=Deforestation_during_the_Roman_p
eriod&oldid=94219478
>
>
> Oh yeah. I think Andrew Lih is being somewhat
pessimistic of the
> potential of a properly-directed class project.
>
> In any case, I suspect we'll be unable to stop
professors from
> assigning Wikipedia article-writing as a project. So
directing people
> to our many lists of red links may be a way to turn the
unavoidable
> problem to our advantage.

Should someone maybe write an essay explaining to profs how
would be 
the best to
go about assigning things related to Wikipedia?



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On 30/10/2007, geni <geniicegmail.com> wrote:

> >They may be deleted out of hand,
> > they may be swiftly rewritten, moved to a
different name, reverted...
> > any number of things that make it hard to
determine if your students
> > actually did the work.
>
> I think it is safe to assume that you are required to
submit the work
> to the Dr as well as wikipedia.

I've known of cases - and listened to the yelling - where
the teacher
failed to realise that this might be a useful option.
"But you can't
delete my article! I need to have it up on Monday so it can
be
marked!"

-- 
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.graydunelm.org.uk

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Steve Bennett schreef:
> University assignments as Wikipedia articles are
obviously problematic for
> us.

Interestingly, there has been a lot of discussion on this
subject over
at our colleagues': http://e
n.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Eduzendium and
talk page.

For comparison, and without further comment (because I lack
the
knowledge to judge the articles), here are some of the
articles they
received from these assignments:
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Leopards_as_taphonomi
c_agents
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Hyaenas_as_taphonomic_
agents

Our coverage of taphonomy now doesn't even come close to
theirs. hether
that's a good thing, I don't know.

Eugene

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On 10/30/07, joshua.zelinskyyale.edu
<joshua.zelinskyyale.edu> wrote:
>
> Quoting David Gerard <dgerardgmail.com>:
>
> > In any case, I suspect we'll be unable to stop
professors from
> > assigning Wikipedia article-writing as a project.
So directing people
> > to our many lists of red links may be a way to
turn the unavoidable
> > problem to our advantage.
>
> Should someone maybe write an essay explaining to profs
how would be
> the best to
> go about assigning things related to Wikipedia?


Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:S
chool_and_university_projectsand
the associated
h
ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:School_and_university_
projects_-_instructions_for_teachers_and_lecturers
.

Could probably do with more publicity...

-- phoebe
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On 10/30/07, David Gerard <dgerardgmail.com> wrote:
>
> I can see something like this working if the area is
carefully
> selected. There's little low-hanging fruit left, as
we've noted here


There's plenty for uni students. Biology and history have
massive
numbers of articles to be written.
And hey, yesterday, I stumbled across [[Tommy Langan]],
apparently one of
the 15 best Gaelic footballers ever, who has one line on
him. Maybe there's
not much truly generalist low hanging fruit
that could be attacked by a primary school student, but
delve even slightly
into a specialist area,
and there is tons.


> Possible approach: find a WikiProject that you know the
research
> material will be there for. Set the students to work
filling out those
> requested article links.


That's a much better idea than letting students pick their
own topics.

Another approach: see all those lists of missing
encyclopedic
> articles? Same thing: research and summary.


That's what I do.

This would add lots of good and useful encyclopedic content
without
> running much risk of getting up Wikipedians' noses or
horrifying the
> students or their professor.
>
> The only challenge is finding topics that would be
suitable for students
to write about...that would actually demonstrate research
skills, knowledge
of the subject etc. I guess they could submit proposals and
the teacher
could decide if they liked the topic.

I don't think any of the subjects I did at uni would have
been very
conducive to this. Maybe a first year essay "The
history of English
orthography", but after that it was always very
particular analysis,
argumentation etc.

Steve
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On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 11:33:49PM -0700, Delirium wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:
> > I can see something like this working if the area
is carefully
> > selected. There's little low-hanging fruit left,
as we've noted here
> > before - but any WikiProject will have endless
lists of red links just
> > waiting for someone to do the legwork to research
and write an
> > article. Someone with university-level research
facilities should be
> > able to do a much better job than from a mere
Googling, in not much
> > more time.
> >   
> 
> If you pick the right subject, there are many
not-too-obscure areas 
> where the low-hanging fruit will bury you up to your
neck. I've been 
> doing some checking of our biography coverage and it's
surprisingly weak 
> despite our huge numbers of biographies, I guess
because there are an 
> even more huge number of notable people. Browsing
through a PD version 
> of _Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Musicians_
(1919), we're missing 
> articles on *almost all* of the people in it! From
spot-checking I'd say 
> we cover maybe 15-20% at best. Similar results can be
found if you scan 
> through the _Dictionary of National Biography_ (UK) or,
even more 
> strikingly, any of the major German biographical
dictionaries. And those 
> are all western examples; our coverage of Indian
biographies is even 
> worse---we don't even have articles on all *current*
members of India's 
> parliament, let alone those from even as recently as
the 1990s. So if 
> you pick the right area, like say "Indian
politics", you should find 
> most of the articles still waiting to be written, with
the exception of 
> a handful of the top-tier most famous people.

Other areas are scientists. We still are not covering all
Fellows of the
Royal Society, the US Academy of Sciences or the Australian
Academy of
Sciences. 

Brian.
 
> -Mark
> 
> 
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-- 
          Brian Salter-Duke            b_dukebigpond.net.au  
               [[User:Bduke]]  mainly on en:Wikipedia.
           Also on fr: Wikipedia, Meta-Wiki and Wikiversity


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On 31/10/2007, Brian Salter-Duke <b_dukebigpond.net.au> wrote:

> > If you pick the right subject, there are many
not-too-obscure areas
> > where the low-hanging fruit will bury you up to
your neck. I've been
> > doing some checking of our biography coverage and
it's surprisingly weak
> > despite our huge numbers of biographies, I guess
because there are an
> > even more huge number of notable people. Browsing
through a PD version
> > of _Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Musicians_
(1919), we're missing
> > articles on *almost all* of the people in it! From
spot-checking I'd say
> > we cover maybe 15-20% at best. Similar results can
be found if you scan
> > through the _Dictionary of National Biography_
(UK) or, even more
> > strikingly, any of the major German biographical
dictionaries. And those
> > are all western examples; our coverage of Indian
biographies is even
> > worse---we don't even have articles on all
*current* members of India's
> > parliament, let alone those from even as recently
as the 1990s. So if
> > you pick the right area, like say "Indian
politics", you should find
> > most of the articles still waiting to be written,
with the exception of
> > a handful of the top-tier most famous people.

> Other areas are scientists. We still are not covering
all Fellows of the
> Royal Society, the US Academy of Sciences or the
Australian Academy of
> Sciences.


Do we have suitable red-link lists?


- d.

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On 31/10/2007, Delirium <deliriumhackish.org> wrote:

> And those
> are all western examples; our coverage of Indian
biographies is even
> worse---we don't even have articles on all *current*
members of India's
> parliament, let alone those from even as recently as
the 1990s. So if
> you pick the right area, like say "Indian
politics", you should find
> most of the articles still waiting to be written, with
the exception of
> a handful of the top-tier most famous people.

South African politicos, ditto. I'll try and put together a
redlink
list tonight...

-- 
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.graydunelm.org.uk

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On 31/10/2007, Delirium <deliriumhackish.org> wrote:

> And those
> are all western examples; our coverage of Indian
biographies is even
> worse---we don't even have articles on all *current*
members of India's
> parliament, let alone those from even as recently as
the 1990s. So if
> you pick the right area, like say "Indian
politics", you should find
> most of the articles still waiting to be written, with
the exception of
> a handful of the top-tier most famous people.

South African politicos, ditto. I'll try and put together a
redlink
list tonight...

-- 
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.graydunelm.org.uk

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On 10/31/07, Delirium <deliriumhackish.org> wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:
> > I can see something like this working if the area
is carefully
> > selected. There's little low-hanging fruit left,
as we've noted here
> > before - but any WikiProject will have endless
lists of red links just
> > waiting for someone to do the legwork to research
and write an
> > article. Someone with university-level research
facilities should be
> > able to do a much better job than from a mere
Googling, in not much
> > more time.
> >
>
> If you pick the right subject, there are many
not-too-obscure areas
> where the low-hanging fruit will bury you up to your
neck. I've been
> doing some checking of our biography coverage and it's
surprisingly weak
> despite our huge numbers of biographies, I guess
because there are an
> even more huge number of notable people. Browsing
through a PD version
> of _Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Musicians_
(1919), we're missing
> articles on *almost all* of the people in it!

I have found only the 1st edition as full text (Google
edition is
searchable only). From that, I ran a quick script and
extracted over
4000 names to [1]. I then ran another script to remove
"blue links"
[2], whicl leaves close to 2700 red links.

That would mean we're missing over 65% of the musicians;
however,
there are some bogus entries and lots'o' OCR error in there.
Feel free
to cleanup, redirect, and, of course, write articles!

Magnus


[1] http://en.wikipedi
a.org/wiki/User:Magnus_Manske/Baker%27s_Biographical_Diction
ary_of_Musicians
[2] http
://tools.wikimedia.de/~magnus/filterdone.php

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On 10/31/07, David Gerard <dgerardgmail.com> wrote:
> On 31/10/2007, Brian Salter-Duke <b_dukebigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
> > > If you pick the right subject, there are many
not-too-obscure areas
> > > where the low-hanging fruit will bury you up
to your neck. I've been
> > > doing some checking of our biography coverage
and it's surprisingly weak
> > > despite our huge numbers of biographies, I
guess because there are an
> > > even more huge number of notable people.
Browsing through a PD version
> > > of _Baker's Biographical Dictionary of
Musicians_ (1919), we're missing
> > > articles on *almost all* of the people in it!
From spot-checking I'd say
> > > we cover maybe 15-20% at best. Similar
results can be found if you scan
> > > through the _Dictionary of National
Biography_ (UK) or, even more
> > > strikingly, any of the major German
biographical dictionaries. And those
> > > are all western examples; our coverage of
Indian biographies is even
> > > worse---we don't even have articles on all
*current* members of India's
> > > parliament, let alone those from even as
recently as the 1990s. So if
> > > you pick the right area, like say
"Indian politics", you should find
> > > most of the articles still waiting to be
written, with the exception of
> > > a handful of the top-tier most famous
people.
>
> > Other areas are scientists. We still are not
covering all Fellows of the
> > Royal Society, the US Academy of Sciences or the
Australian Academy of
> > Sciences.
>
>
> Do we have suitable red-link lists?

The entries of the Dictionary of National Biography (1903),
complete
with partially wikified text now at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use
r:Magnus_Manske/Dictionary_of_National_Biography

Magnus

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In addition, Almost all  public libraries in the UK should
have the
full current http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National
_Biography
available to them. The list of entries in that dictionary is
available
to anyone at  http://www.
oup.com/oxforddnb/info/index/.
Not all the names there have full articles; some are merely
mentions
or paragraphs. The ones with full articles have of course
always been
held notable for WP purposes.



On 11/1/07, Magnus Manske <magnusmanskegooglemail.com> wrote:
> On 10/31/07, David Gerard <dgerardgmail.com> wrote:
> > On 31/10/2007, Brian Salter-Duke <b_dukebigpond.net.au> wrote:
> >
> > > > If you pick the right subject, there are
many not-too-obscure areas
> > > > where the low-hanging fruit will bury
you up to your neck. I've been
> > > > doing some checking of our biography
coverage and it's surprisingly weak
> > > > despite our huge numbers of biographies,
I guess because there are an
> > > > even more huge number of notable people.
Browsing through a PD version
> > > > of _Baker's Biographical Dictionary of
Musicians_ (1919), we're missing
> > > > articles on *almost all* of the people
in it! From spot-checking I'd say
> > > > we cover maybe 15-20% at best. Similar
results can be found if you scan
> > > > through the _Dictionary of National
Biography_ (UK) or, even more
> > > > strikingly, any of the major German
biographical dictionaries. And those
> > > > are all western examples; our coverage
of Indian biographies is even
> > > > worse---we don't even have articles on
all *current* members of India's
> > > > parliament, let alone those from even as
recently as the 1990s. So if
> > > > you pick the right area, like say
"Indian politics", you should find
> > > > most of the articles still waiting to be
written, with the exception of
> > > > a handful of the top-tier most famous
people.
> >
> > > Other areas are scientists. We still are not
covering all Fellows of the
> > > Royal Society, the US Academy of Sciences or
the Australian Academy of
> > > Sciences.
> >
> >
> > Do we have suitable red-link lists?
>
> The entries of the Dictionary of National Biography
(1903), complete
> with partially wikified text now at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use
r:Magnus_Manske/Dictionary_of_National_Biography
>
> Magnus
>
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>


-- 
David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.

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On 31/10/2007, Andrew Gray <shimgraygmail.com> wrote:

> South African politicos, ditto. I'll try and put
together a redlink
> list tonight...

And overwhelmingly red it is too! Time to start on redirects
and see
if we can get more than 10%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Shimgray/South_Africa

-- 
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.graydunelm.org.uk

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