Re: Searchability of non-mainspace pages

Will Johnson says:

> The reason I'd argue against pre-emptive blanking
and/or pre-emptive
No_Index'ing is that we essentially take
> what I consider the arrogant and condensending position
that we know
better than the target what would or wouldn't
> be embarrassing to that target.? I've never felt that
it's our mandate to
be the guardians of other people's privacy.? 
> If so-and-so blp feels that we shouldn't mention that
they were arrested
for drunk driving they can come forward with
> their request.? Some people don't care.

> The same goes for our own editors.? Do we put ourselves
in the position of
deciding what to oversight *without 
> any request* from the target party?? If someone did
that ostensibly in my
favor, I would be offended by that 
> action personally.? I certainly wouldn't thank them, or
find their actions
productive, helpful or even polite.

> Our project should not be attempting to pre-emptively
solve all issues,
because we cannot.? We have mechanisms 
> in place to handle each issue that's been mentioned
already.? We don't
need more creeping.

I think this is, in general, the wrong way round. Rather
than saying we
should be waiting for people who have been harmed to come
forward, we should
be trying to avoid harm. By not indexing by default, we
avoid harm. I think
it's rather presumptuous to say "people need to come
forward to us"... when
we're the ones doing harm. I think it's rather short sighted
and perhaps
even mean spirited to say "only those who complain
should be offered
relief"...

But then my view of what is arrogant and condescending may
differ somwhat
from Will's

Larry Pieniazek
Hobby mail: Lar at Miltontrainworks dot com 


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Larry Pieniazek wrote:
> I think this is, in general, the wrong way round.
Rather than saying we
> should be waiting for people who have been harmed to
come forward, we should
> be trying to avoid harm. By not indexing by default, we
avoid harm. I think
> it's rather presumptuous to say "people need to
come forward to us"... when
> we're the ones doing harm. I think it's rather short
sighted and perhaps
> even mean spirited to say "only those who complain
should be offered
> relief"...

I agree completely, and just now had this thread brought to
my 
attention.  I would strongly support an effort to remove a
lot of 
non-mainspace stuff from the search engines.

I also support a very vigorous insistence on policies of
courtesy, 
kindness, and human dignity, towards each other and also -
equally - 
towards others.

I support the development of easier and easier mechanisms to
delete 
offensive vandalism not just from the pages, but from the
article 
history as well.  There is simply no good reason for us to
have 
extensive archives of hate.

We are here to do something positive and loving for the
world, and it 
makes us proud to be a part of it.  As Larry says, rather
than waiting 
for people who have been harmed to come forward, we should
be trying to 
avoid harm.

--Jimbo

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While I agree that pre-emptive action to avoid harm is a
good thing, I would
like everyone to think again about the implications of
removing policyspace
or projectspace from indexing. I've had to shepherd a few
newbies around,
and each and every one of them has relied on Google searches
of projectspace
to orient themselves. People have developed an instinctive
understanding of
how Google organises information that is crucial for them
when faced with
our bewildering morass of internal policies. Without that,
we get confused
newbies or lost editors, neither of which is something we
can afford.

Once again, I believe an addition to BLP indicating that
courtesy blanking
is recommended is the most reasonable, highest-gain approach
here. It
preserves useful discussion, but removes it from searches;
but is not a
blunt instrument, but one open to community oversight.

RR

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:27 PM, Jimmy Wales <jwaleswikia.com> wrote:

> Larry Pieniazek wrote:
> > I think this is, in general, the wrong way round.
Rather than saying we
> > should be waiting for people who have been harmed
to come forward, we
> should
> > be trying to avoid harm. By not indexing by
default, we avoid harm. I
> think
> > it's rather presumptuous to say "people need
to come forward to us"...
> when
> > we're the ones doing harm. I think it's rather
short sighted and perhaps
> > even mean spirited to say "only those who
complain should be offered
> > relief"...
>
> I agree completely, and just now had this thread
brought to my
> attention.  I would strongly support an effort to
remove a lot of
> non-mainspace stuff from the search engines.
>
> I also support a very vigorous insistence on policies
of courtesy,
> kindness, and human dignity, towards each other and
also - equally -
> towards others.
>
> I support the development of easier and easier
mechanisms to delete
> offensive vandalism not just from the pages, but from
the article
> history as well.  There is simply no good reason for us
to have
> extensive archives of hate.
>
> We are here to do something positive and loving for the
world, and it
> makes us proud to be a part of it.  As Larry says,
rather than waiting
> for people who have been harmed to come forward, we
should be trying to
> avoid harm.
>
> --Jimbo
>
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> WikiEN-llists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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