Lobby takeover of wikimedia projects, particularly English wikipedia

Although it is a well known issue, this issue has finally
made its way to
spotlight with the ongoing CAMERA incident on English
wikipedia... I am sure
English wikipedia's arbcom will come up with a reasonable
conclusion and the
purpose of this email is not related to the CAMERA arbcom
case directly.

Due to the very nature of wikis they are very open to
outside interference
and manipulation. Although there had been many discussions
on the matter,
they never generated the intended level of brainstorming.

I am sure someone can provide a brief history of past
external manipulations
so I will avoid listing them on this email.

You may be under the false impression that large wikis such
as en.wikipedia
is invulnerable to such attacks, but this would be a fatal
mistake. English
wikipedia is probably the most vulnerable language edition
of wikipedia. If
a lobby group were to secure some 10 admin accounts they can
effectively
overwhelm any process we have on English Wikipedia.

So lets discuss possible solutions and precautions.

I recommend that foundation pass a ruling on the matter of
lobby takeovers.
Although it goes without saying along with NPOV, spelling it
out has
benefits and no harm. This way we can more easily and
promptly purge them on
wikis that did not have a serious conversation on this
matter enough to come
up with a policy.
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Since we start off with overkill, wouldn't it be easier to
appoint admins
based on resumes, personal interviews and obstacle course
performance
instead? And bureaucrats, having passed basic admin
training, are selected
for bureaucrat candidacy school and we take the top 10% of
those?

Really, I think you're jumping at shadows. No one can point
to even one
admin account gained through some organized advocacy
attempt, nor to any
significant effects even as a result of this one
"discovered" group. The
point is there is no problem, and until there is... no
solution is necessary
- particularly not of the drastic sort. Most of the
"organized" nationalism
groups formed on-wiki and stay on-wiki, maybe you should fix
that first.

Nathan

On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 11:50 PM, White Cat
<wikipedia.kawaii.nekogmail.com>
wrote:

> Although it is a well known issue, this issue has
finally made its way to
> spotlight with the ongoing CAMERA incident on English
wikipedia... I am
> sure
> English wikipedia's arbcom will come up with a
reasonable conclusion and
> the
> purpose of this email is not related to the CAMERA
arbcom case directly.
>
> Due to the very nature of wikis they are very open to
outside interference
> and manipulation. Although there had been many
discussions on the matter,
> they never generated the intended level of
brainstorming.
>
> I am sure someone can provide a brief history of past
external
> manipulations
> so I will avoid listing them on this email.
>
> You may be under the false impression that large wikis
such as
> en.wikipedia
> is invulnerable to such attacks, but this would be a
fatal mistake.
> English
> wikipedia is probably the most vulnerable language
edition of wikipedia.
> If
> a lobby group were to secure some 10 admin accounts
they can effectively
> overwhelm any process we have on English Wikipedia.
>
> So lets discuss possible solutions and precautions.
>
> I recommend that foundation pass a ruling on the matter
of lobby
> takeovers.
> Although it goes without saying along with NPOV,
spelling it out has
> benefits and no harm. This way we can more easily and
promptly purge them
> on
> wikis that did not have a serious conversation on this
matter enough to
> come
> up with a policy.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-llists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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I am? I am accused of having a secret agenda on a regular
basis. Resumes can
easily be forged. If the lobby is as organized as we fear it
is. And sarcasm
will not really charm anyone. Such an organization would
have "legends" to
their "agents".

I know about various 'nationalist groups' (thats really an
oversimplification) that exists on wikipedia only to push
their view and
purge views they do not agree to. They exist because we go
out of our ways
not to address this issue simply to keep our hands clean.
The problem will
not solve itself.

     - White Cat

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 6:59 AM, Nathan <nawrichgmail.com> wrote:

> Since we start off with overkill, wouldn't it be easier
to appoint admins
> based on resumes, personal interviews and obstacle
course performance
> instead? And bureaucrats, having passed basic admin
training, are selected
> for bureaucrat candidacy school and we take the top 10%
of those?
>
> Really, I think you're jumping at shadows. No one can
point to even one
> admin account gained through some organized advocacy
attempt, nor to any
> significant effects even as a result of this one
"discovered" group. The
> point is there is no problem, and until there is... no
solution is
> necessary
> - particularly not of the drastic sort. Most of the
"organized"
> nationalism
> groups formed on-wiki and stay on-wiki, maybe you
should fix that first.
>
> Nathan
>
> On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 11:50 PM, White Cat <
> wikipedia.kawaii.nekogmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Although it is a well known issue, this issue has
finally made its way
> to
> > spotlight with the ongoing CAMERA incident on
English wikipedia... I am
> > sure
> > English wikipedia's arbcom will come up with a
reasonable conclusion and
> > the
> > purpose of this email is not related to the CAMERA
arbcom case directly.
> >
> > Due to the very nature of wikis they are very open
to outside
> interference
> > and manipulation. Although there had been many
discussions on the
> matter,
> > they never generated the intended level of
brainstorming.
> >
> > I am sure someone can provide a brief history of
past external
> > manipulations
> > so I will avoid listing them on this email.
> >
> > You may be under the false impression that large
wikis such as
> > en.wikipedia
> > is invulnerable to such attacks, but this would be
a fatal mistake.
> > English
> > wikipedia is probably the most vulnerable language
edition of wikipedia.
> > If
> > a lobby group were to secure some 10 admin
accounts they can effectively
> > overwhelm any process we have on English
Wikipedia.
> >
> > So lets discuss possible solutions and
precautions.
> >
> > I recommend that foundation pass a ruling on the
matter of lobby
> > takeovers.
> > Although it goes without saying along with NPOV,
spelling it out has
> > benefits and no harm. This way we can more easily
and promptly purge
> them
> > on
> > wikis that did not have a serious conversation on
this matter enough to
> > come
> > up with a policy.
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-llists.wikimedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-llists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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White Cat wrote:
> Although it is a well known issue, this issue has
finally made its way to
> spotlight with the ongoing CAMERA incident on English
wikipedia... I am sure
> English wikipedia's arbcom will come up with a
reasonable conclusion and the
> purpose of this email is not related to the CAMERA
arbcom case directly.

Which is good because it is likely most editors on
Foundation mailing 
have no idea what the CAMERA incident is...

> Due to the very nature of wikis they are very open to
outside interference
> and manipulation. Although there had been many
discussions on the matter,
> they never generated the intended level of
brainstorming.
> 
> I am sure someone can provide a brief history of past
external manipulations
> so I will avoid listing them on this email.
> 
> You may be under the false impression that large wikis
such as en.wikipedia
> is invulnerable to such attacks, but this would be a
fatal mistake. English
> wikipedia is probably the most vulnerable language
edition of wikipedia. If
> a lobby group were to secure some 10 admin accounts
they can effectively
> overwhelm any process we have on English Wikipedia.
> 
> So lets discuss possible solutions and precautions.
> 
> I recommend that foundation pass a ruling on the matter
of lobby takeovers.

Which type of ruling are you thinking of ?

Ant

> Although it goes without saying along with NPOV,
spelling it out has
> benefits and no harm. This way we can more easily and
promptly purge them on
> wikis that did not have a serious conversation on this
matter enough to come
> up with a policy.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-llists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> 


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> White Cat wrote:
>> Although it is a well known issue, this issue has
finally made its way
>> to
>> spotlight with the ongoing CAMERA incident on
English wikipedia... I am
>> sure
>> English wikipedia's arbcom will come up with a
reasonable conclusion
>> and the
>> purpose of this email is not related to the CAMERA
arbcom case
>> directly.
>
> Which is good because it is likely most editors on
Foundation mailing
> have no idea what the CAMERA incident is...
>
>> Due to the very nature of wikis they are very open
to outside
>> interference
>> and manipulation. Although there had been many
discussions on the
>> matter,
>> they never generated the intended level of
brainstorming.
>>
>> I am sure someone can provide a brief history of
past external
>> manipulations
>> so I will avoid listing them on this email.
>>
>> You may be under the false impression that large
wikis such as
>> en.wikipedia
>> is invulnerable to such attacks, but this would be
a fatal mistake.
>> English
>> wikipedia is probably the most vulnerable language
edition of
>> wikipedia. If
>> a lobby group were to secure some 10 admin accounts
they can
>> effectively
>> overwhelm any process we have on English
Wikipedia.
>>
>> So lets discuss possible solutions and
precautions.
>>
>> I recommend that foundation pass a ruling on the
matter of lobby
>> takeovers.
>
> Which type of ruling are you thinking of ?
>
> Ant
>
>> Although it goes without saying along with NPOV,
spelling it out has
>> benefits and no harm. This way we can more easily
and promptly purge
>> them on
>> wikis that did not have a serious conversation on
this matter enough to
>> come
>> up with a policy.

We probably cannot completely prevent organized lobbies
having some
influence. Effective efforts would require a degree of
discipline which
would be far too rigorous for a volunteer organization. So
we will have
to accept some interference by supporters of Zionism,
supporters of the
Chinese government, and, indeed, any organized nationalist
or social
movement.

We can mitigate it somewhat by continuing to be conscious of
point of
view, but POV editors can be quite skilled at manipulating
NPOV and
making it seem that they are on the short end of the stick,
when, in
fact, they dominate.

Fred



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Hash: SHA1

White Cat wrote:
> Although it is a well known issue, this issue has
finally made its way to
> spotlight with the ongoing CAMERA incident on English
wikipedia... I am sure
> English wikipedia's arbcom will come up with a
reasonable conclusion and the
> purpose of this email is not related to the CAMERA
arbcom case directly.
> 

What is this all about, and what is the CAMERA incident?

Best,
Jon
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org


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Jon wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> White Cat wrote:
>> Although it is a well known issue, this issue has
finally made its way to
>> spotlight with the ongoing CAMERA incident on
English wikipedia... I am sure
>> English wikipedia's arbcom will come up with a
reasonable conclusion and the
>> purpose of this email is not related to the CAMERA
arbcom case directly.
>>
> 
> What is this all about, and what is the CAMERA
incident?
> 
> Best,
> Jon
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

> 
>
iD8DBQFIIDIV6+ro8Pm1AtURAlYuAKCUWdnAEzhmBlOl0NLFVjeHH3iM8ACg
gbuw
> MNMKcDd7+YM7hyVmEHd/Z0o=
> =ZO0E
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

I asked on irc

Following links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wik
ipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2008-05-02/In_the_news
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wi
ki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents/Stateme
nt_re_Wikilobby_campaign

ant


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> Since we start off with overkill, wouldn't it be easier
to appoint admins
> based on resumes, personal interviews and obstacle
course performance
> instead? And bureaucrats, having passed basic admin
training, are
> selected
> for bureaucrat candidacy school and we take the top 10%
of those?
>
> Really, I think you're jumping at shadows. No one can
point to even one
> admin account gained through some organized advocacy
attempt, nor to any
> significant effects even as a result of this one
"discovered" group. The
> point is there is no problem, and until there is... no
solution is
> necessary
> - particularly not of the drastic sort. Most of the
"organized"
> nationalism
> groups formed on-wiki and stay on-wiki, maybe you
should fix that first.
>
> Nathan

There are instances when the thumb has been on the scale,
but that
approach is not viable. It is far better to continue to
develop as much
sophistication as we can with respect to point of view and
try to ensure
opposing points of view are fairly expressed. To take the
example of the
CAMERA initiate, we need to ensure that the Palestinian and
Arab point of
view is fully and fairly expressed. That is far preferable
to adopting a
position of mistrust toward administrators.

Fred


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That is an issue of content management, which we already do
and we are
already attempting to do better as time goes on. We've
already got stacks of
policies - some are in good shape, others could stand some
significant
improvement, but where we fall down is on enforcement.
Creating a
Foundation-wide policy condemning "attack groups"
invites more of the sort
of unending drama, accusations and amateur sleuthing that
already clogs up
our dispute resolution process from time to time. We should
stick to what
we're good at - creating and managing content. Investigating
and punishing
external efforts to influence content is really beyond what
we can expect to
do well, and if we do our current job well enough it won't
be necessary.

Nathan

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 8:12 AM, Fred Bauder <fredbaudfairpoint.net> wrote:

>
>
> There are instances when the thumb has been on the
scale, but that
> approach is not viable. It is far better to continue to
develop as much
> sophistication as we can with respect to point of view
and try to ensure
> opposing points of view are fairly expressed. To take
the example of the
> CAMERA initiate, we need to ensure that the Palestinian
and Arab point of
> view is fully and fairly expressed. That is far
preferable to adopting a
> position of mistrust toward administrators.
>
> Fred
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Jon wrote:
> White Cat wrote:
>   
>> Although it is a well known issue, this issue has
finally made its way to
>> spotlight with the ongoing CAMERA incident on
English wikipedia... I am sure
>> English wikipedia's arbcom will come up with a
reasonable conclusion and the
>> purpose of this email is not related to the CAMERA
arbcom case directly.
>>     
> What is this all about, and what is the CAMERA
incident?
>   

That's a valid question.  Reference to the CAMERA incident
has come up a 
number of times recently as though it were "well
known".  These 
incidents come up quite often, but most of us are not
involved with 
them, and have better things to do with our time than to
wade through 
other people's tedious flame wars.  I suppose that a capsule
summary 
would be helpful to those of us who aren't involved.  If it
turns out to 
be just another case of same-old same-old we can yawn and go
back to our 
normal activities.

Ec

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