Re: Patent concerns

> On Wed, 2008-01-16 at 21:50 +0100, Hans de Goede
wrote:
> > Matthew Miller wrote:
> > > On Wed, Jan 16, 2008 at 02:46:02PM -0500, Tom
spot Callaway wrote:
> > >> Due to patent concerns, we won't be able
to include any games in Fedora
> > >> which meet the following criteria:
> > >> A game where "targets" move
across the screen to a predetermined point
> > >> or line, where the player hits a
button/key/mouse click as the target(s)
> > >> crosses that point or line, and gets
points.
> > > 
> > > Seriously? I wrote an AppleBasic game in
fourth grade (1984) that did that.
> > > 
> > 
> > I hear you, some smartass behind DDR though so
game mechanics can't be 
> > copyrighted, lets patent them.
> > 
> > Cheesh.
> > 
> > Maybe its an idea to petition pubpat: http://www.pubpat.org/ to
fight this? I 
> > know they have much bigger (and much more
important) fish to catch, but this 
> > seems trivially easy to overthrow.
> 
> If you're motivated to find the prior art, feel free.


>From the top of my head, Moon Buggy. If you haven't seen
it, here's a
quick description: You can see the left side of a (moon)
buggy on the
right side of the screen and a (moon) surface underneath
with pits in
it that moves from left to right. You control the buggy and
have to
jump over the holes (you can't move left or right, you can
just jump).
So: you have "targets" (pits) that move across the
screen and you have
a predetermined point (buggy) where you have to press a
button, so a
fine piece of prior art if you ask me. It's not very old
(Version 1 was
released in 2004), but it has some ancestry: it's based on a
1982 game
"Moon Patrol" which, based on screenshots, seems
to be quite similar.

Johannes


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On Thu, 2008-01-17 at 14:15 +0200, Johannes wrote:

> >From the top of my head, Moon Buggy. If you haven't
seen it, here's a
> quick description: You can see the left side of a
(moon) buggy on the
> right side of the screen and a (moon) surface
underneath with pits in
> it that moves from left to right. You control the buggy
and have to
> jump over the holes (you can't move left or right, you
can just jump).
> So: you have "targets" (pits) that move
across the screen and you have
> a predetermined point (buggy) where you have to press a
button, so a
> fine piece of prior art if you ask me. It's not very
old (Version 1 was
> released in 2004), but it has some ancestry: it's based
on a 1982 game
> "Moon Patrol" which, based on screenshots,
seems to be quite similar.

I don't think that is sufficient. The patent is pretty clear
about the
way to score points is for the player to hit a button to
match the
linear moving target when it crosses the point in space.
"Jumping" or
"Shooting" doesn't count.

~spot

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On Jan 17, 2008 3:11 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway
wrote:

> I don't think that is sufficient. The patent is pretty
clear about the
> way to score points is for the player to hit a button
to match the
> linear moving target when it crosses the point in
space. "Jumping" or
> "Shooting" doesn't count.

I suppose you might be right. I have another idea, but can
you first
tell us when and to whom was the patent issued?

Johannes

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I appreciate the concern over patents here, but at the same
time I'm
pretty sure that the Linux kernel infringes on a whole bunch
of
patents - when are you going to remove that?

I'm serious.

 - C

On Jan 17, 2008 2:48 PM, Johannes Dahl <muusikgmail.com> wrote:
> I suppose you might be right. I have another idea, but
can you first
> tell us when and to whom was the patent issued?

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My rather facetious point is that there is a whole bunch of
unenforceable patents out there in what is a rather rubbish
system
that it's dire need of reform.

It's ridiculous that you can patent a gameplay style.  In
any other
western country that patent would not be granted.

Not abusing trademarks is one thing, but being forced to tip
toe
around issues like incredulous patents is a slap in the
face.  So,
only that company is allowed to make that type of game, a
style that's
been around for decades before them?

I can understand Red Hat's corporate stance, but surely
there's a
moral one here to and just caving in to a bit of legal
strong arming
is not setting out what Red Hat is about, a company that
has
traditionally operated on strong moral principles.

 - C

On Jan 17, 2008 3:10 PM, Free Gamer <freegamerbloggmail.com> wrote:
> I appreciate the concern over patents here, but at the
same time I'm
> pretty sure that the Linux kernel infringes on a whole
bunch of
> patents - when are you going to remove that?
>
> I'm serious.
>
>  - C

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On Thu, 2008-01-17 at 15:10 +0000, Free Gamer wrote:
> I appreciate the concern over patents here, but at the
same time I'm
> pretty sure that the Linux kernel infringes on a whole
bunch of
> patents - when are you going to remove that?
> 
> I'm serious.

Pretty sure doesn't cut it. If you have specific patent
concerns around
the Linux kernel, feel free to contact me offlist.

~spot

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On Thu, 2008-01-17 at 15:17 +0000, Free Gamer wrote:
> It's ridiculous that you can patent a gameplay style. 
In any other
> western country that patent would not be granted.
> 
> Not abusing trademarks is one thing, but being forced
to tip toe
> around issues like incredulous patents is a slap in the
face.  So,
> only that company is allowed to make that type of game,
a style that's
> been around for decades before them?

Yes, I agree, it is ridiculous. However, these are the times
in which we
live, and Red Hat has decided to not take a risk around this
patent set.

The owner of this particular patent is aggressively
licensing it to
other people, so they see a huge value in it, and would
likely go out of
their way to defend its use (especially against an entity
with plenty of
money in the bank).

~spot

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On Thu, 2008-01-17 at 15:17 +0000, Free Gamer wrote:
> I can understand Red Hat's corporate stance, but surely
there's a
> moral one here to and just caving in to a bit of legal
strong arming
> is not setting out what Red Hat is about, a company
that has
> traditionally operated on strong moral principles.

One of those "strong moral principles" is:

- Don't infringe on other people's patents, no matter how
ludicrous.

When Fedora is made aware of patents that we may be
infringing upon, we
act on that, with the aid of legal counsel. This is the
decision that
our patent lawyers have given us.

The only recourse available is to find prior art and make a
case to the
US Patent Office, to try to have the patent invalidated.

~spot

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On Thu, 2008-01-17 at 16:48 +0200, Johannes Dahl wrote:
> On Jan 17, 2008 3:11 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway
wrote:
> 
> > I don't think that is sufficient. The patent is
pretty clear about the
> > way to score points is for the player to hit a
button to match the
> > linear moving target when it crosses the point in
space. "Jumping" or
> > "Shooting" doesn't count.
> 
> I suppose you might be right. I have another idea, but
can you first
> tell us when and to whom was the patent issued?

I'll be explicit:

Read this:
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story
=16014

The primary patent of concern is US 6347998, held by
Konami.

In addition, Harmonix seems to hold patents directly
related:
http://www.patentstorm.us/assignees/Harmonix_Music_Sys
tems,_Inc_-88927-1.html

Good luck.

~spot

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