XEmbed-aware NPAPI Plugins?

Hi,

Are there any plans to adapt Konqueror (now KFM?) to use
XEmbed to 
instantiate NPAPI plugins (such as the Flash Player)?

	Thanks...
-- 
	-Mike Melanson

Hi Mike,

On Tuesday 03 April 2007 00:16 +0100, Mike Melanson wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Are there any plans to adapt Konqueror (now KFM?) to
use XEmbed to
> instantiate NPAPI plugins (such as the Flash Player)?

I am not sure I understand the question correctly.
Do you mean "adapt" in the sense of doing
differently than we do now or in 
changing to a new version of the NPAPI?

Cheers,
Kevin

P.S.: KFM has been the name of the filemanager in KDE1, it's
been Konqueror 
since KDE2

-- 
Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer
KDE user support, developer mentoring

Kevin Krammer wrote:
> Hi Mike,
> 
> On Tuesday 03 April 2007 00:16 +0100, Mike Melanson
wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Are there any plans to adapt Konqueror (now KFM?)
to use XEmbed to
>> instantiate NPAPI plugins (such as the Flash
Player)?
> 
> I am not sure I understand the question correctly.
> Do you mean "adapt" in the sense of doing
differently than we do now or in 
> changing to a new version of the NPAPI?

Not a new version of NPAPI.

Mozilla implements XEmbed for embedding plugins on X, which
differs (in 
good ways) from the classical Xt mainloop method (though it
still 
supports the old method). The API (from the plugin's
perspective) is here:

   http://www.mozilla.org/projects/plugins/xemb
ed-plugin-extension.html

I've seen the code on Mozilla and it seems pretty simple
from the 
hosting app angle, too (query the plugin to ask if it
supports XEmbed, 
if yes, create an XEmbed socket and pass it to the plugin
via SetWindow()).

I'm interested because I'm working on upgrading a NPAPI
plugin from Xt 
mainloop to XEmbed.

> P.S.: KFM has been the name of the filemanager in KDE1,
it's been Konqueror 
> since KDE2

Ooops, I mis-read the mailing list page and got it
backwards. Good; I 
think Konqueror is a cooler name than KFM.

-- 
	-Mike Melanson

On Tuesday 03 April 2007 23:08 +0100, Mike Melanson wrote:
> Kevin Krammer wrote:
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > On Tuesday 03 April 2007 00:16 +0100, Mike
Melanson wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Are there any plans to adapt Konqueror (now
KFM?) to use XEmbed to
> >> instantiate NPAPI plugins (such as the Flash
Player)?
> >
> > I am not sure I understand the question
correctly.
> > Do you mean "adapt" in the sense of
doing differently than we do now or
> > in changing to a new version of the NPAPI?
>
> Not a new version of NPAPI.
>
> Mozilla implements XEmbed for embedding plugins on X,
which differs (in
> good ways) from the classical Xt mainloop method
(though it still
> supports the old method). The API (from the plugin's
perspective) is here:
>
>    http://www.mozilla.org/projects/plugins/xemb
ed-plugin-extension.html

I see, thanks for clarifying.

I think we already use XEmbed or something similar for
plugins because we run 
them out of process as part of nspluginviewer, in which case
it might not be 
very difficult to check if the plugin can do its side of
XEmbed itself.

However, you better wait for an answer of the developers
with in-depth 
knowlegde of browser and/or plugin handling (please excuse
the CC'ing guys)

> I've seen the code on Mozilla and it seems pretty
simple from the
> hosting app angle, too (query the plugin to ask if it
supports XEmbed,
> if yes, create an XEmbed socket and pass it to the
plugin via SetWindow()).
>
> I'm interested because I'm working on upgrading a NPAPI
plugin from Xt
> mainloop to XEmbed.

Adobe Flash plugin, correct?

Cheers,
Kevin

-- 
Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer
KDE user support, developer mentoring

>> Not a new version of NPAPI.

Coincidentally, I had WIP versions with partial support of
npruntime, but
they're rather useless since they make flash crash badly..
I'll probably
try again in KDE4 where I can implement everything, not just
a subset of
functionality.

>>
>> Mozilla implements XEmbed for embedding plugins on
X, which differs (in
>> good ways) from the classical Xt mainloop method
(though it still
>> supports the old method). The API (from the
plugin's perspective) is
>> here:
>>
>>    http://www.mozilla.org/projects/plugins/xemb
ed-plugin-extension.html
>
> I see, thanks for clarifying.
>
> I think we already use XEmbed or something similar for
plugins because we
> run
> them out of process as part of nspluginviewer, in which
case it might not
> be
> very difficult to check if the plugin can do its side
of XEmbed itself.

It would be very difficult. nspluginviewer has non-trivial
communication
with the browser. When it comes to embedding the plugin
inside
nspluginviewer, well... I can't speak for George, of course,
but when I
looked at the spec and the examples before, I frankly found
it very
problematic (and not much of a spec), and wasn't sure that
implementing it
won't break tons of plugins... Besides the XEmbed flag, the
ABI revision
also comes with a "tookit flag", which has only 2
specified values: Gtk
1.2 and Gtk 2.0. And, well, the examples they have encourage
plugin
authors to check that:
    err = CallNPN_GetValueProc(gNetscapeFuncs.getvalue,
NULL,
                               NPNVSupportsXEmbedBool,
                               (void
*)&supportsXEmbed);

    if (err != NPERR_NO_ERROR || supportsXEmbed != PR_TRUE)
        return NPERR_INCOMPATIBLE_VERSION_ERROR;

    err = CallNPN_GetValueProc(gNetscapeFuncs.getvalue,
NULL,
                               NPNVToolkit,
                               (void *)&toolkit);

    if (err != NPERR_NO_ERROR || toolkit != NPNVGtk2)
        return NPERR_INCOMPATIBLE_VERSION_ERROR;

And, frankly, I am not sure I'm confident that lying here
will be safe.
(Coincidentally, depending on which ABI version this is at,
we might have
to provide fake versions of some gtk symbols to make Flash 7
not crash)

>
> However, you better wait for an answer of the
developers with in-depth
> knowlegde of browser and/or plugin handling (please
excuse the CC'ing
> guys)

Good job CCing the wrong people :p

-Maks

On Wednesday 04 April 2007 16:52 +0100, Maksim Orlovich
wrote:

> > However, you better wait for an answer of the
developers with in-depth
> > knowlegde of browser and/or plugin handling
(please excuse the CC'ing
> > guys)
>
> Good job CCing the wrong people :p


I CCed George because he's listed in the copyrights of
nspluginviewer files, 
David, because he seems to know everything and Koos because
he does (AFAIK) 
some kind of embedding in KMPlayer (and, AFAIK, in the
original Gnash<->KDE 
integration)

Somehow the mail received by the list does not show George
as being part of 
the CC list, while the mail in my "sent" folder
does.

I know all of them are also subscribed here, but as we all
know, sometimes we 
skip threads and only later find out they would have been
important.

Since it is usually almost impossible to get corporate
developers to contact 
us for information, I didn't want to see this opportunity
wasted.

Cheers.
Kevin

-- 
Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer
KDE user support, developer mentoring

>
> How about Flash Player 9 (latest version)?

Definitely not that particular bug / not that obviously --
as I said, I
had quite a few crashes when trying to implement npruntime,
but it's just
hard to say whose fault they were, as the implementation was
incomplete as
well. (Though it could do stuff like find out the number of
frames, etc.).
I am just not very good at debugging stuff w/a stripped
library...

What Flash 7 used to do was something like:
*(int*)dlsym("gtk_major_version") for some ABI
revisions. Which, of
course, crashes with a null pointer exception
w/nspluginviewer.

> Querying for a specific toolkit somewhat undermines the
goal of XEmbed.
> I thought XEmbed was supposed to allow, for example,
putting GTK apps
> inside KDE apps, which is the goal here.

I would definitely agree with that, and in our end, it may
be nicer not to
use Xt (though I am not sure supporting both Xt and XEmbed
wouldn't be
scarier).


> There are no public versions of the Adobe Flash Player
for Linux that
> presently support XEmbed right now. But the stuff I'm
working on right
> now does not query for underlying toolkit support.

This is very, very, good to hear, and might mean that I
might try to do
the XEmbed thing, if I can find something to test with,
though it's in no
way guaranteed --- way too much other stuff to do, and
npruntime support
would be more important... Flash is basically -the- critical
plugin we
care about, just about everything else is replaceable
natively.

Thanks,
Maks

Mike Melanson wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Are there any plans to adapt Konqueror (now KFM?) to
use XEmbed to 
> instantiate NPAPI plugins (such as the Flash Player)?

If anyone is interested in adding XEmbed plugin support to
Konqueror, I 
have published a simple, XEmbed-aware, open source, NPAPI
plugin:

   http://multimedia.cx/d
iamondx/

I'm hoping this can help bridge the gap between Linux web
browsers and 
the Flash plugin. This first release addresses XEmbed and
events. 
Eventually, I hope it will be a testbench for making
windowless plugins 
a reality in Unix browsers.

-- 
	-Mike Melanson