A strategic question

On 1/28/2006 at 3:16 AM Jozef Baum wrote:

| [lots of stuff deleted]
 =============



Use what you're comfortable with, no one is forcing you to
use FreeBSD.
  

I, as a FreeBSD newbie, was able to find FreeBSD quite
useful on the
desktop.  Your mileage may vary.

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On 2006-01-28 03:16, Jozef Baum <jozef.baumtelenet.be> wrote:
> This posting doesn't contain a technical question about
FreeBSD,
> rather a strategic one.
>
> Some time ago, I wanted to migrate to a Unix
environment, because I
> wanted to have a secure, stable, convenient and
efficient environment
> for developing and running programs, [...]

That's a reasonable expectation.

> I downloaded Solaris 10 and a lot of documentation
about it, then
> installed Solaris 10. As opposed to Linux and free BSD
implementations
> of UNIX, Solaris looks like a professionally developed
operating
> system.

I'll agree to this.  Mostly.  But see below for what a
`professional'
system expects from you, as the installer person &
future administrator
of the system.

> It seems to be1 a very advanced operating system.

There is some "advanced" stuff in almost all the
operating systems in
use today.  I'm not sure I understand what strikes you as
'advanced' in
Solaris that does not have an equivalently 'advanced'
technolody in
FreeBSD.

> However, I soon realized that, when one wants a yacht,
it is not a
> good idea to acquire the Queen Mary II, just as it
costs too much time
> to acquire a hotel to have a cup of coffee.

The same can be said for almost any operating system today
-- except,
perhaps, for the crap of Redmond, which is still riddled
with trojans,
viruses and countless lock-in tricks designed explicitly to
*stop* the
administrator and the users from doing their work, until
they pay a
hefty amount to company X for their special "Y
software".

I don't really see why this is true for Solaris, but untrue
for BSD.

> [Linux rant]
> I came to FreeBSD, with the idea that it had a more
homogeneous
> quality development model, downloaded the FreeBSD 6.0
boot CD and CD 1
> and 2, and installed it on my PC, following the
handbook.

So, does it?  Hvae you used FreeBSD long enough to see this
homogeneous
design of things clearly?  I had been using Linux for more
than 5 years
before I started with FreeBSD.  About the same time that the
diversity &
many differences of all the Linux distributions out there
had started to
get on my nerves, FreeBSD looked like a very good
alternative.  It still
does 

> In fact, to install FreeBSD, one needs already a lot of
knowledge
> about the system. To acquire that knowledge, one needs
experience on
> an installed system. But to have an installed system,
one needs
> already a lot of knowledge about the system. That's the
problem.

No you don't.  This is what the documentation is all about. 
You claim
that you have read the documentation (i.e. the Handbook)
before
installing.  I am not suggesting that you didn't, but if you
did find
things missing, have you tried asking here about anything
that seemed
confusing?  Have you posted anything to the freebsd-doc list
stating
that you'd like the installation chapter to also explain
"Foo and Bar"?

> The handbook doesn't tell you that, at the "last
chance" message, you
> have to take out the boot CD and to insert CD 1. But if
you don't do
> so, nothing gets installed.

Depending on what you select to install, this may or may not
be
necessary.  To give you meaningful help & advice about
the install
process, we would need a detailed list of the steps you took
during
installation.  If you go back and keep notes, I and as am
sure many
others from this list, will help you get through the
obstacles of the
installation.  After all, it's something you're only going
to do a few
times at most 

> I configured a German ISO keyboard, but many keys don't
work
> correctly. One has to look with Google to find
additional information
> about configuring a German keyboard.

That's ok.  The good thing about having access to the source
code is
that you can *make* these modifications to the system
itself.  If you
have improvements about the keyboard layouts, we can arrange
to bring
you in contact with the right persons, who can then commit
your changes
to the official tree and improve German layout for everyone.
 That would
be extremely cool ))

> I have a cable Internet connection and my network card
was recognized,
> but getting an IP-address with the DHCP service of my
provider was
> impossible.  Again, I had to look up with Google how to
allow the
> firewall to get an IP-addres with my provider's DHCP.

The Handbook explains how firewalls work.  The new firewalls
chapter
even has an explicit example of a rule that allows DHCP
access for one
of the most popular FreeBSD firewalls:

    # Allow out access to my ISP's DHCP server for cable or
DSL networks.
    # This rule is not needed for 'user ppp' type connection
to the
    # public Internet, so you can delete this whole group.
    # Use the following rule and check log for IP address.
    # Then put IP address in commented out rule &amp;
delete first rule
    pass out log quick on dc0 proto udp from any to any port
= 67 keep state
    #pass out quick on dc0 proto udp from any to z.z.z.z
port = 67 keep state

I'm sure you missed this one, but it's ok.  Asking here on
the list is
always a good way of getting either a direct explanation or
pointers to
the documentation for more help.

> The locate command did not work, as the locate database
seemed to be
> corrupted. I had to figure out how to rebuild this
database.

Hmmm, this is a good candidate for a postinstall(7) manpage.
 This is
something that I have been considering for a while, but
never got around
to writing.  A manpage like the one OpenBSD has, which
explains common
tasks one has to perform right after the installation
completes.

> The root user had a csh, while ordinary users had a sh
shell. I had to
> figure out how to provide the same shell to the root
user and the
> other users, as all those virtual users are all one and
the same
> person, me.

This is a bit silly, but I'll bite.  You mentioned that you
have worked
with Linux and Solaris.  You should have already picked up
commands like
chsh(1), chfn(1) and the other tools that allow users to
modify their
personal information, their shell, etc.  You should have, at
least, a
working knowledge of vipw(8).

And once more, if you don't know something, this is exactly
what the
documentation and this list is about.  Don't be afraid to
use these
resources 

> I tried to setup an X Window environment (nVidia
Geforce video
> adapter), but the horizontal and vertical refresh rates
of the
> manufacturer didn't work, I had to experiment to find
out the one X
> likes. Then I could startup X, only to not having
configured at all my
> German keyboard.

In general, these days, X11 servers will query your hardware
for the
optimal rates.  Having to manually tweak the refresh rates
is, most of
the time, a sure sign that you are not going down the right
path.

Can you explain *how* you configured your X11 desktop?

> I tried to install emacs during installation, but it
didn't succeed.

Why?  Remember we are not there.  We can't see the error
message you saw
at the time this failed.  It could have been that you picked
up the
wrong size for your /var partition, ending up with a
/var/tmp partition
that is far too small to unpack Emacs.  It could have been a
billion
things.  We can't tell until you are more specific...

> Returning to the post-installation tasks after having
installed the
> system resulted in a successfull installation of emacs
(working only
> after a system reboot).
>
> I could go on for hours with this kind of troubles.

Which is, honestly, meaningless.  You have fallen to the
classic trap of
the ``angry newbie''.  You don't understand what this new
system you got
your hands on is all about, but you still feel that it's the
system that
should change to suit your own way of thinking.  It's
usually the other
way around though.  That's true with Linux, Solaris and a
few other UNIX
systems out there too ))

> Why is it that FreeBSD people, who seem to be perfectly
able to
> formulate correct algorithms for implementing UNIX
concepts, and
> translating them into code, don't care at all about a
novice user,
> providing him with an installation program that doesn't
work as it
> should, even without a GUI?

The sysinstall has several bugs and things that I've found
to be
annoying at times, but you haven't mentioned *any* of these
things yet.

I'm sure we can work out a solution that fits your needs. 
You'll have
to provide us with more detailed information about the steps
you take
during the installation process though.

> I know UNIX is all about solving problems, but is it
really
> interesting to make it apparently deliberatly so
difficult for a
> newcomer? Is it really the policy of those guys to make
the entry
> level to UNIX difficult, only to avoid a breakthrough
of UNIX
> (FreeBSD) to the desktop users?

No.  This is why we try to document many aspects of FreeBSD.
 This is
why a lot of people spend their time revising, correcting,
updating and
checking the documentation, the manpages, the website and
other things
that new-comers will find useful.

> I knew the installation, configuration and optimization
of a Unix
> system would take me a lot of time and patience.

Yes.

> But after some weeks, the only result, as probably for
many others, is
> an immense frustration.

Be patient, still  You
already know that UNIX has a very steep
learning curve, because you have worked with Solaris.  Some
Linux
distributions try to hide this learning curve behind swarms
of shell
scripts, bells and whistles.  This is *not* something we
like doing in
the BSD side of the world.  You'll have to climb that steep
curve, more
or less on your own, but you can always call for the help of
those who
have already done so.  Here on this list and on the web.

> Please, guys, if you want FreeBSD to survive and to
become not only a
> server OS, but also a desktop OS, realize that you are
going the wrong
> way by annoying newcomers with a puzzle.

Possibly.  Or maybe not.

> I want to learn Unix, the real Unix.  Searching a text
file for a
> string with grep, not launching a tremendous memory
hungry application
> under X Window to do so. I want to learn how to pipe
Unix commands to
> get usefull work done.  I want to learn the ed line
editor as a
> starting point for using sed. But please, don't
frustrate me from the
> beginning by making the installation of FreeBSD so
difficult. Drop
> some whistles and bells on which you are working, and
encounter the
> newbie.

The main problem with this train of thought is that all
these "bells and
whistles" that newbies coming from other environments
would like to have
are almost invariably useless once you start getting
experienced and end
up being huge time-sinks that keep people from doing *real*
work, like
improving the existing system 

- Giorgos

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Xn Nooby wrote:

> If you want the freedom that FreeBSD offers, you have
to make the journey to
> where it is at.

IMHO, this sentence should be on the front page of http://www.freebsd.org/, 
right next to "The Power To Serve" 



--
... (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer?
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Jozef Baum wrote:

> ... to install FreeBSD, one needs already a lot of
knowledge about the
> system. To acquire that knowledge, one needs experience
on an installed
> system. But to have an installed system, one needs
already a lot of
> knowledge about the system. That's the problem.
> 
> The handbook doesn't tell you that, at the "last
chance" message, you have
> to take out the boot CD and to insert CD 1. But if you
don't do so, nothing
> gets installed.

1st: I don't think I have ever installed an unknown system
and got it 
right the first time: OS/2, RedHat Linux, OpenBSD and
FreeBSD.

I have always installed the system, used it about a month
and then 
reinstalled.

So you install the system the best you can, then start
learning your way 
around it and figure out what went wrong. First time, don't
worry about 
things getting messed up, just don't throw it directly into
production.

You might find yourself reinstalling a few times, but that's
just part 
of the game.

2nd: It's true that the FreeBSD developers have not gone out
of their 
way to make a sleek installer, but unlike other OS's, the
installer is 
something you'll hardly ever use. I installed my laptop with
5.2.1 two 
years ago, since then I have continuously upgraded
everything and run 
6.0 now, but I haven't used the installer at all.

So, there is a catch, those who use the installer has yet to
get the 
experience to make it better and those who know how just
don't have that 
itch scratching.

3rd: If there is an error or something missing then you can
file a 
problem report for the documentation and explain what you
find missing.

> I configured a German ISO keyboard, but many keys don't
work correctly. One
> has to look with Google to find additional information
about configuring a
> German keyboard.

Getting keyboards right is a science and one of the most
frequently 
asked questions. The thing is that you have to deal with
both keyboard 
and character sets, and further some programs let the user
change the 
keyboard for that program only: emacs, pine, thunderbird.

While not particularly for german keyboard, there is an
article about 
setting things up and you should be able to figure out the
needed 
changes - heck the examples are for german!

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/ar
ticles/euro/index.html

> The locate command did not work, as the locate database
seemed to be
> corrupted. I had to figure out how to rebuild this
database.

An all system you need to build/rebuild the locate database
regularly.

> The root user had a csh, while ordinary users had a sh
shell. I had to
> figure out how to provide the same shell to the root
user and the other
> users, as all those virtual users are all one and the
same person, me.

There is one principle you should adhere to on any system:
Let root keep 
default settings. This is challenging at first, but in
critical 
situations an advantage.

> I tried to setup an X Window environment (nVidia
Geforce video adapter), but
> the horizontal and vertical refresh rates of the
manufacturer didn't work, I
> had to experiment to find out the one X likes. Then I
could startup X, only
> to not having configured at all my German keyboard.

see the above article, it also have the part covering X11.

> I tried to install emacs during installation, but it
didn't succeed.
> Returning to the post-installation tasks after having
installed the system
> resulted in a successfull installation of emacs
(working only after a system
> reboot).

Well, this is where sometimes you install, gain some
experience and 
reinstall. Anyway, there is no reason you have to get
everything 
installed at install time.

I have learned to prefer a lean system at install and then
add stuff as 
needed. Otherwise I allways end up with lots of crap that I
don't need.

> Why is it that FreeBSD people, who seem to be perfectly
able to formulate
> correct algorithms for implementing UNIX concepts, and
translating them into
> code, don't care at all about a novice user, providing
him with an
> installation program that doesn't work as it should,
even without a GUI?

As another stated this: It seems you want the system to
think your way - 
which more or less requires the developers to think your
way.

This is obviously unrealistic and unreasonable to require -
but your 
luck is that unlike other operating systems, you can make
FreeBSD behave 
as you like it.

> I know UNIX is all about solving problems, but is it
really interesting to
> make it apparently deliberatly so difficult for a
newcomer? Is it really the
> policy of those guys to make the entry level to UNIX
difficult, only to
> avoid a breakthrough of UNIX (FreeBSD) to the desktop
users?

I don't think anyone makes things difficult on purpose. but
as above 
statement, their brain might just not work like yours. Not
better, nor 
worse, just different.

And there is no "avoding breakthrough to desktop"
- I have used FreeBSD 
on my desktop, laptop actually, for three years. Before that
I used 
RedHat for 4 years.

> I cannot
> imagine that people capable of developing such a
complex operating system as
> Unix are unable to offer newcomers a correct and easy
install procedure. But
> probably, that's not their concern.

Exactly - as mentioned above.

> Please, guys, if you want FreeBSD to survive and to
become not only a server
> OS, but also a desktop OS, realize that you are going
the wrong way by
> annoying newcomers with a puzzle.

Actually I think FreeBSD is the best desktop system ever!
It's long been 
a myth that FreeBSD is only for servers.

Cheers, Erik
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