A strategic question

This posting doesn't contain a technical question about
FreeBSD, rather a
strategic one.

Some time ago, I wanted to migrate to a Unix environment,
because I wanted
to have a secure, stable, convenient and efficient
environment for
developing and running programs, no longer having to buy a
new PC with a new
OS and applications software every 3 years to support Bill
Gates' only goal
(becoming and remaining the richest man of the USA). At the
end of the 20th
century, it took us only a few years to have to upgrade from
Win 95 to Win
95SE, to Win 98, to Win 98SE, and to Win ME, only to remain
with a poor OS.
Now, when reinstalling my version of Windows XP, it takes me
more time to
download and install the SP2 than to install Windows XP. I
wonder how people
with a low-bandwidth Internet connection do to download the
SP2 for Windows
XP.

I downloaded Solaris 10 and a lot of documentation about it,
then installed
Solaris 10. As opposed to Linux and free BSD implementations
of UNIX,
Solaris looks like a professionally developed operating
system. It seems to
be1 a very advanced operating system. However, I soon
realized that, when
one wants a yacht, it is not a good idea to acquire the
Queen Mary II, just
as it costs too much time to acquire a hotel to have a cup
of coffee.

Then I downloaded what I thought being one of the best Linux
distributions,
Suse Linux. I tried to install it, but the system got locked
up by something
so stupid as my nVidia modem. Together with the
heterogeneous quality of
Linux components, and not at all liking Linus Torvald's
arrogance, I decided
to abandon Linux.

I came to FreeBSD, with the idea that it had a more
homogeneous quality
development model, downloaded the FreeBSD 6.0 boot CD and CD
1 and 2, and
installed it on my PC, following the handbook.

I knew UNIX is a toolkit intended to IT knowledge people, so
it will never
perform a breakthrough to the average desktop user. But my
disappointment
with FreeBSD was great.

In fact, to install FreeBSD, one needs already a lot of
knowledge about the
system. To acquire that knowledge, one needs experience on
an installed
system. But to have an installed system, one needs already a
lot of
knowledge about the system. That's the problem.

The handbook doesn't tell you that, at the "last
chance" message, you have
to take out the boot CD and to insert CD 1. But if you don't
do so, nothing
gets installed.

I configured a German ISO keyboard, but many keys don't work
correctly. One
has to look with Google to find additional information about
configuring a
German keyboard.

I have a cable Internet connection and my network card was
recognized, but
getting an IP-address with the DHCP service of my provider
was impossible.
Again, I had to look up with Google how to allow the
firewall to get an
IP-addres with my provider's DHCP.

The locate command did not work, as the locate database
seemed to be
corrupted. I had to figure out how to rebuild this database.

The root user had a csh, while ordinary users had a sh
shell. I had to
figure out how to provide the same shell to the root user
and the other
users, as all those virtual users are all one and the same
person, me.

I tried to setup an X Window environment (nVidia Geforce
video adapter), but
the horizontal and vertical refresh rates of the
manufacturer didn't work, I
had to experiment to find out the one X likes. Then I could
startup X, only
to not having configured at all my German keyboard.

I tried to install emacs during installation, but it didn't
succeed.
Returning to the post-installation tasks after having
installed the system
resulted in a successfull installation of emacs (working
only after a system
reboot).

I could go on for hours with this kind of troubles. But now
comes the
strategic question.

Why is it that FreeBSD people, who seem to be perfectly able
to formulate
correct algorithms for implementing UNIX concepts, and
translating them into
code, don't care at all about a novice user, providing him
with an
installation program that doesn't work as it should, even
without a GUI?

I know UNIX is all about solving problems, but is it really
interesting to
make it apparently deliberatly so difficult for a newcomer?
Is it really the
policy of those guys to make the entry level to UNIX
difficult, only to
avoid a breakthrough of UNIX (FreeBSD) to the desktop users?

I knew the installation, configuration and optimization of a
Unix system
would take me a lot of time and patience. But after some
weeks, the only
result, as probably for many others, is an immense
frustration. I cannot
imagine that people capable of developing such a complex
operating system as
Unix are unable to offer newcomers a correct and easy
install procedure. But
probably, that's not their concern.

Please, guys, if you want FreeBSD to survive and to become
not only a server
OS, but also a desktop OS, realize that you are going the
wrong way by
annoying newcomers with a puzzle. I want to learn Unix, the
real Unix.
Searching a text file for a string with grep, not launching
a tremendous
memory hungry application under X Window to do so. I want to
learn how to
pipe Unix commands to get usefull work done.  I want to
learn the ed line
editor as a starting point for using sed. But please, don't
frustrate me
from the beginning by making the installation of FreeBSD so
difficult. Drop
some whistles and bells on which you are working, and
encounter the newbie.

Many thanks in advance for your comments.

A frustrated FreeBSD newbie
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I still consider myself a "Unix" newbie after
using "Unix" based  
systems for about 5 years now. I've never just solely used
Unix based  
systems , but they hold the most interest for me. The fact
that I  
don't know how to do everything right away and I have to
work at  
these types of problems keeps me coming back for more. Not
to say  
that I don't ever get frustrated by it sometimes. There have
been  
times especially in the beginning of learning
"Unixes" where I've  
said "Screw it!!" and went back to using Windows.
But I always find  
myself coming back and each time learning more and going
back less.

I still don't use Freebsd or Linux etc.... as my primary
"Desktop"  
machine, because I'm not a Unix expert and still prefer a
comfortable  
gui. For the time being I'm very happy using Mac OS X as my
desktop  
machine, because I can use the Unix underpinnings but still
have an  
exceptional gui that I don't need to fuss with to get
working the way  
I like.

One thing that I read about the programming language perl
was that  
where ever possible it was made easier for the expert
instead of the  
newbie, the philosophy being that your only a newbie once
and you'll  
appreciate the elegant simplicity (though initially
difficult) of  
language later. I find this true for the "Unixes"
also. Generally the  
system is built with experienced users in mind. But once
your used to  
it you'll be thankful.

So take your time. Everything won't work the way you want it
to over  
night.

There are also some other BSD's that are supposedly easier
to install  
and run. I believe
PCBDS is one of them.


http://www.pcbsd.org/


Romeo


On Jan 27, 2006, at 9:16 PM, Jozef Baum wrote:

> This posting doesn't contain a technical question about
FreeBSD,  
> rather a
> strategic one.
>
> Some time ago, I wanted to migrate to a Unix
environment, because I  
> wanted
> to have a secure, stable, convenient and efficient
environment for
> developing and running programs, no longer having to
buy a new PC  
> with a new
> OS and applications software every 3 years to support
Bill Gates'  
> only goal
> (becoming and remaining the richest man of the USA). At
the end of  
> the 20th
> century, it took us only a few years to have to upgrade
from Win 95  
> to Win
> 95SE, to Win 98, to Win 98SE, and to Win ME, only to
remain with a  
> poor OS.
> Now, when reinstalling my version of Windows XP, it
takes me more  
> time to
> download and install the SP2 than to install Windows
XP. I wonder  
> how people
> with a low-bandwidth Internet connection do to download
the SP2 for  
> Windows
> XP.
>
> I downloaded Solaris 10 and a lot of documentation
about it, then  
> installed
> Solaris 10. As opposed to Linux and free BSD
implementations of UNIX,
> Solaris looks like a professionally developed operating
system. It  
> seems to
> be1 a very advanced operating system. However, I soon
realized  
> that, when
> one wants a yacht, it is not a good idea to acquire the
Queen Mary  
> II, just
> as it costs too much time to acquire a hotel to have a
cup of coffee.
>
> Then I downloaded what I thought being one of the best
Linux  
> distributions,
> Suse Linux. I tried to install it, but the system got
locked up by  
> something
> so stupid as my nVidia modem. Together with the
heterogeneous  
> quality of
> Linux components, and not at all liking Linus Torvald's
arrogance,  
> I decided
> to abandon Linux.
>
> I came to FreeBSD, with the idea that it had a more
homogeneous  
> quality
> development model, downloaded the FreeBSD 6.0 boot CD
and CD 1 and  
> 2, and
> installed it on my PC, following the handbook.
>
> I knew UNIX is a toolkit intended to IT knowledge
people, so it  
> will never
> perform a breakthrough to the average desktop user. But
my  
> disappointment
> with FreeBSD was great.
>
> In fact, to install FreeBSD, one needs already a lot of
knowledge  
> about the
> system. To acquire that knowledge, one needs experience
on an  
> installed
> system. But to have an installed system, one needs
already a lot of
> knowledge about the system. That's the problem.
>
> The handbook doesn't tell you that, at the "last
chance" message,  
> you have
> to take out the boot CD and to insert CD 1. But if you
don't do so,  
> nothing
> gets installed.
>
> I configured a German ISO keyboard, but many keys don't
work  
> correctly. One
> has to look with Google to find additional information
about  
> configuring a
> German keyboard.
>
> I have a cable Internet connection and my network card
was  
> recognized, but
> getting an IP-address with the DHCP service of my
provider was  
> impossible.
> Again, I had to look up with Google how to allow the
firewall to  
> get an
> IP-addres with my provider's DHCP.
>
> The locate command did not work, as the locate database
seemed to be
> corrupted. I had to figure out how to rebuild this
database.
>
> The root user had a csh, while ordinary users had a sh
shell. I had to
> figure out how to provide the same shell to the root
user and the  
> other
> users, as all those virtual users are all one and the
same person, me.
>
> I tried to setup an X Window environment (nVidia
Geforce video  
> adapter), but
> the horizontal and vertical refresh rates of the
manufacturer  
> didn't work, I
> had to experiment to find out the one X likes. Then I
could startup  
> X, only
> to not having configured at all my German keyboard.
>
> I tried to install emacs during installation, but it
didn't succeed.
> Returning to the post-installation tasks after having
installed the  
> system
> resulted in a successfull installation of emacs
(working only after  
> a system
> reboot).
>
> I could go on for hours with this kind of troubles. But
now comes the
> strategic question.
>
> Why is it that FreeBSD people, who seem to be perfectly
able to  
> formulate
> correct algorithms for implementing UNIX concepts, and
translating  
> them into
> code, don't care at all about a novice user, providing
him with an
> installation program that doesn't work as it should,
even without a  
> GUI?
>
> I know UNIX is all about solving problems, but is it
really  
> interesting to
> make it apparently deliberatly so difficult for a
newcomer? Is it  
> really the
> policy of those guys to make the entry level to UNIX
difficult,  
> only to
> avoid a breakthrough of UNIX (FreeBSD) to the desktop
users?
>
> I knew the installation, configuration and optimization
of a Unix  
> system
> would take me a lot of time and patience. But after
some weeks, the  
> only
> result, as probably for many others, is an immense
frustration. I  
> cannot
> imagine that people capable of developing such a
complex operating  
> system as
> Unix are unable to offer newcomers a correct and easy
install  
> procedure. But
> probably, that's not their concern.
>
> Please, guys, if you want FreeBSD to survive and to
become not only  
> a server
> OS, but also a desktop OS, realize that you are going
the wrong way by
> annoying newcomers with a puzzle. I want to learn Unix,
the real Unix.
> Searching a text file for a string with grep, not
launching a  
> tremendous
> memory hungry application under X Window to do so. I
want to learn  
> how to
> pipe Unix commands to get usefull work done.  I want to
learn the  
> ed line
> editor as a starting point for using sed. But please,
don't  
> frustrate me
> from the beginning by making the installation of
FreeBSD so  
> difficult. Drop
> some whistles and bells on which you are working, and
encounter the  
> newbie.
>
> Many thanks in advance for your comments.
>
> A frustrated FreeBSD newbie
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-questionsfreebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-que
stions
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to
"freebsd-questions- 
> unsubscribefreebsd.org"

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--On January 28, 2006 3:16:04 AM +0100 Jozef Baum
<jozef.baumtelenet.be> 
wrote:

> This posting doesn't contain a technical question about
FreeBSD, rather a
> strategic one.
>
You need to try Gentoo.

Seriously, though, did you follow the install document?  I
came from where 
you are - Windows -> Unix.  In Windows, you throw the
documentation in the 
trash and double click on setup.exe.  Click on Next, Next,
Next, Are you 
Sure?, Next, Next, Finish.  Unix requires you to *prepare*
before you 
install, by actually reading the docs.  That will require a
change of 
habits (although I still do things the Windows way when I'm
working in 
Windows.)

Read the docs first.  Then try installing.  You'll be much
happier.
Here's the Handbook - 
<http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/h
andbook/>
That should be your "bible".  The first chapter is
"Installing FreeBSD". 
Read it.  Print it out.  Follow it closely.  You won't be
sorry.

Oh, and learn vi.   Almost every Unix system comes with vi
by default but 
*not* some of the other editors people like to use (like
pico or emacs.)

Paul Schmehl (paulsutdallas.edu)
Adjunct Information Security Officer
University of Texas at Dallas
AVIEN Founding Member
http://www.utdallas.edu/
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--- Jozef Baum <jozef.baumtelenet.be> wrote:

[snip a lot of blabbing]

> I want to learn the ed line editor...

What about vi, huh?


	

	
		
__________________________________________________________ 
Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca
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On Jan 27, 2006, at 6:16 PM, Jozef Baum wrote:

> This posting doesn't contain a technical question about
FreeBSD,  
> rather a
> strategic one.
>
> Some time ago, I wanted to migrate to a Unix
environment, because I  
> wanted
> to have a secure, stable, convenient and efficient
environment for
> developing and running programs, no longer having to
buy a new PC  
> with a new
> OS and applications software every 3 years to support
Bill Gates'  
> only goal
> (becoming and remaining the richest man of the USA). At
the end of  
> the 20th
> century, it took us only a few years to have to upgrade
from Win 95  
> to Win
> 95SE, to Win 98, to Win 98SE, and to Win ME, only to
remain with a  
> poor OS.
> Now, when reinstalling my version of Windows XP, it
takes me more  
> time to
> download and install the SP2 than to install Windows
XP. I wonder  
> how people
> with a low-bandwidth Internet connection do to download
the SP2 for  
> Windows
> XP.
>
> I downloaded Solaris 10 and a lot of documentation
about it, then  
> installed
> Solaris 10. As opposed to Linux and free BSD
implementations of UNIX,
> Solaris looks like a professionally developed operating
system. It  
> seems to
> be1 a very advanced operating system. However, I soon
realized  
> that, when
> one wants a yacht, it is not a good idea to acquire the
Queen Mary  
> II, just
> as it costs too much time to acquire a hotel to have a
cup of coffee.
>
> Then I downloaded what I thought being one of the best
Linux  
> distributions,
> Suse Linux. I tried to install it, but the system got
locked up by  
> something
> so stupid as my nVidia modem. Together with the
heterogeneous  
> quality of
> Linux components, and not at all liking Linus Torvald's
arrogance,  
> I decided
> to abandon Linux.
>
> I came to FreeBSD, with the idea that it had a more
homogeneous  
> quality
> development model, downloaded the FreeBSD 6.0 boot CD
and CD 1 and  
> 2, and
> installed it on my PC, following the handbook.
>
> I knew UNIX is a toolkit intended to IT knowledge
people, so it  
> will never
> perform a breakthrough to the average desktop user. But
my  
> disappointment
> with FreeBSD was great.
>
> In fact, to install FreeBSD, one needs already a lot of
knowledge  
> about the
> system. To acquire that knowledge, one needs experience
on an  
> installed
> system. But to have an installed system, one needs
already a lot of
> knowledge about the system. That's the problem.
>
> The handbook doesn't tell you that, at the "last
chance" message,  
> you have
> to take out the boot CD and to insert CD 1. But if you
don't do so,  
> nothing
> gets installed.
>
> I configured a German ISO keyboard, but many keys don't
work  
> correctly. One
> has to look with Google to find additional information
about  
> configuring a
> German keyboard.
>
> I have a cable Internet connection and my network card
was  
> recognized, but
> getting an IP-address with the DHCP service of my
provider was  
> impossible.
> Again, I had to look up with Google how to allow the
firewall to  
> get an
> IP-addres with my provider's DHCP.
>
> The locate command did not work, as the locate database
seemed to be
> corrupted. I had to figure out how to rebuild this
database.
>
> The root user had a csh, while ordinary users had a sh
shell. I had to
> figure out how to provide the same shell to the root
user and the  
> other
> users, as all those virtual users are all one and the
same person, me.
>
> I tried to setup an X Window environment (nVidia
Geforce video  
> adapter), but
> the horizontal and vertical refresh rates of the
manufacturer  
> didn't work, I
> had to experiment to find out the one X likes. Then I
could startup  
> X, only
> to not having configured at all my German keyboard.
>
> I tried to install emacs during installation, but it
didn't succeed.
> Returning to the post-installation tasks after having
installed the  
> system
> resulted in a successfull installation of emacs
(working only after  
> a system
> reboot).
>
> I could go on for hours with this kind of troubles. But
now comes the
> strategic question.
>
> Why is it that FreeBSD people, who seem to be perfectly
able to  
> formulate
> correct algorithms for implementing UNIX concepts, and
translating  
> them into
> code, don't care at all about a novice user, providing
him with an
> installation program that doesn't work as it should,
even without a  
> GUI?
>
> I know UNIX is all about solving problems, but is it
really  
> interesting to
> make it apparently deliberatly so difficult for a
newcomer? Is it  
> really the
> policy of those guys to make the entry level to UNIX
difficult,  
> only to
> avoid a breakthrough of UNIX (FreeBSD) to the desktop
users?
>
> I knew the installation, configuration and optimization
of a Unix  
> system
> would take me a lot of time and patience. But after
some weeks, the  
> only
> result, as probably for many others, is an immense
frustration. I  
> cannot
> imagine that people capable of developing such a
complex operating  
> system as
> Unix are unable to offer newcomers a correct and easy
install  
> procedure. But
> probably, that's not their concern.
>
> Please, guys, if you want FreeBSD to survive and to
become not only  
> a server
> OS, but also a desktop OS, realize that you are going
the wrong way by
> annoying newcomers with a puzzle. I want to learn Unix,
the real Unix.
> Searching a text file for a string with grep, not
launching a  
> tremendous
> memory hungry application under X Window to do so. I
want to learn  
> how to
> pipe Unix commands to get usefull work done.  I want to
learn the  
> ed line
> editor as a starting point for using sed. But please,
don't  
> frustrate me
> from the beginning by making the installation of
FreeBSD so  
> difficult. Drop
> some whistles and bells on which you are working, and
encounter the  
> newbie.
>
> Many thanks in advance for your comments.
>
> A frustrated FreeBSD newbie

	Rambling on in such a frustrated manner only makes your
comments all  
the less plausible and makes your efforts futilely wasted.
	If you still haven't learned anything about Unix since
you've been  
running SuSe, and you think FreeBSD is bad, try another Unix
OS like  
OpenBSD or NetBSD and you may know the difficulty of
installing  
things (which I know is relative, but oh well). Having all
those  
lovely bells and whistles for the newbies (Anaconda,
installing Xorg  
by default, etc, which inspires me of Ubuntu, Redhat and the
like) is  
what dumbs down Unix for everyone, and in all cases no
matter what  
you learn you need to a) consult documentation, b) read
forums, c)  
use google for cripes sake. There is no excuse for not being
able to  
use something unless the documentation is so incredibly
difficult to  
find (which is not the case here), and you have a lot of
people here  
who are willing to help you _if_ you ask the question
nicely.
	That is my advice to you.
-Garrett
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I have had a lot of frustration in learning Unix, but I
stick to it because
I know it is the last OS I will ever need to learn.  Unix
doesn't change, so
the effort you put in to learning it will never be wasted. 
If you stick
with commerical OS's, they are going to drag you through
every release of
their OS - as that is how they get you to give them your
money.

If you can master Unix, you will never have to purchase
software again, and
will rarely need to upgrade hardware.  You will be free of
nag-ware,
spy-ware, entering license codes, etc.  You will never be a
software pirate
or fear an audit.

If you want to simplify things, try this.  Install FreeBSD
without a GUI,
and use it for 1 month.  When you remove all the fluff, you
will be left
with the core system.  You will be forced to learn the
fundamentals, and in
a simplistic environtment.  So many variables will removed
from the
equation, that the math will be very simple.

Once you are proficient using the shell, enviroment, you can
add a GUI, like
Fluxbox, KDE, or GNOME.  You will have deep a understanding
of how they work
because you will already know the fundamentals.

You can also do a lot from a shell-enviroment.  You can
rip/burn/play cd's,
browse the web, word-process, email, newsgroups, program,
etc.  You will
also be able to do all those things *remotely*.

As far as I know, the people that work on FreeBSD work on it
to suit *their*
needs.  As a user, it might suck that they don't have to
please you - but
there is also nothing preventing you from becoming a
developer.  Not having
to answer to anyone cuts both ways, the developers are not
controlled by any
commercial interest or non-commercial interest.  It's very
likely that being
"popular" is not as important as developing
something they find useful for
themselves.

If you want the freedom that FreeBSD offers, you have to
make the journey to
where it is at.

If it turns out FreeBSD is not for you, there is still good
news.  The more
experience you have with the different Linux and BSD
distros, the more free
you become.  All these system are based on the same
fundamentals.
 Everything you learn will be useful forever.

If you want software to be Free, you can always pirate
Windows apps.  If
*you* want to be Free, you are going to have learn how the
Free systems
work.

I have tried many linux and BSD distros.  FWIW, FreeBSD is
generally
regarded as one-notch above all the Linux distros.  Even
before I tried
FreeBSD, I had heard it was the best in a number of ways,
but also the
hardest to learn.  Most linux users seemed to think of the
FreeBSD crowd as
older, better trained, and more disciplined  - and that the
software
reflected this.  I have basically found this to be true.

People use to tell me that the FreeBSD lists were extremely
unfriendly, and
I have found that to be completely untrue.  Usually if you
show you made an
attempt to figure something out, and ask in the generally
correct way,
people really try to help you.   I think the more focused
lists expect more
focused questions, but that is understandable.  Ironically
the linux forums
are where I have seen most of the "OMG RTFM NOOB!"
type comments.

Well, I could go and on.  One thing I'd really want you to
consider is that
the goal is - to free yourself.
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On Friday 27 January 2006 06:16 pm, Jozef Baum wrote:
> This posting doesn't contain a technical question about
FreeBSD, rather a
> strategic one.

I did my first time ever install of FreeBSD 1 week ago.  My
background is M$ 
from DOS 2.something till XP.  About 2 months ago I tried my
first Linux 
(Ubuntu).  

>
> I knew UNIX is a toolkit intended to IT knowledge
people, so it will never
> perform a breakthrough to the average desktop user. But
my disappointment
> with FreeBSD was great.
>
> In fact, to install FreeBSD, one needs already a lot of
knowledge about the
> system. To acquire that knowledge, one needs experience
on an installed
> system. But to have an installed system, one needs
already a lot of
> knowledge about the system. That's the problem.

That you are frustrated I empathize with, to have
expectations and place blame 
I don't.  I don't think it's fair to attribute
"the" problem to something 
that is "your" problem.  There's nothing wrong
with expressing that something 
is not the way you would like it, however, correct me if I'm
wrong, it seems 
that your tone is that things are not the way they should be
and the people 
that have spent an incomprehensible amount of knowledge,
time and experience 
are at fault, rather than you are frustrated at the learning
curve, time and 
energy to achieve your goals.


>
> The handbook doesn't tell you that, at the "last
chance" message, you have
> to take out the boot CD and to insert CD 1. But if you
don't do so, nothing
> gets installed.

I had the exact same occurrence during my install. I did
think it was amazing 
that such depth of knowledge and experience on the inside
had such a 
superficial flaw.  But I kind of laughed at the
juxtaposition.  Kind of like 
how I'm charmed by Einsteins' messy hair.


>
> I configured a German ISO keyboard, but many keys don't
work correctly. One
> has to look with Google to find additional information
about configuring a
> German keyboard.

I find that Google is a prerequisite tool for any in depth
(and not so in 
depth) computer work.  It seems like you're complaining that
to make a 
painting you had to use a paintbrush.


>
> I have a cable Internet connection and my network card
was recognized, but
> getting an IP-address with the DHCP service of my
provider was impossible.
> Again, I had to look up with Google how to allow the
firewall to get an
> IP-addres with my provider's DHCP.

I think it was Newton who said something like with Google
you stand on the 
shoulders of giants. 

>
> The locate command did not work, as the locate database
seemed to be
> corrupted. I had to figure out how to rebuild this
database.

I had the exact same experience, except I figured it hadn't
been initialized 
yet.  (I guess I'm lucky because I knew about locate and
updatedb from my 
short Linux experience.  It was installed to run
automatically and within 5  
minutes of starting my computer the disk would grind away. 
It drove me nuts, 
and it took a bit of Googling to find out about top and then
to see what was 
causing it and then finally get it under my own manual
control.)

>
> The root user had a csh, while ordinary users had a sh
shell. I had to
> figure out how to provide the same shell to the root
user and the other
> users, as all those virtual users are all one and the
same person, me.
>
I was bugged by the same thing too.  I posted about it on
the newsgroup where 
several people replied that it's good to be used to that
shell because in 
case of emergency that's the only shell that's going to be
available.  I 
figured I'll just deal with it for now.


> I tried to setup an X Window environment (nVidia
Geforce video adapter),
> but the horizontal and vertical refresh rates of the
manufacturer didn't
> work, I had to experiment to find out the one X likes.
Then I could startup
> X, only to not having configured at all my German
keyboard.
>
We are both having very similar obstacles.  I had to come up
with a crazy mode 
line to get my wide screen monitor to work right, we are
talking many hours.  
But now I have 1680x1050 resolution, hardware 3D and that
OpenGL screensaver 
"Euphoria" working.  That alone is enough beauty
and feeling of 
accomplishment to keep me going for the next challenge.


> I tried to install emacs during installation, but it
didn't succeed.
> Returning to the post-installation tasks after having
installed the system
> resulted in a successfull installation of emacs
(working only after a
> system reboot).

Yay!


>
> I could go on for hours with this kind of troubles. But
now comes the
> strategic question.
>
> Why is it that FreeBSD people, who seem to be perfectly
able to formulate
> correct algorithms for implementing UNIX concepts, and
translating them
> into code, don't care at all about a novice user,
providing him with an
> installation program that doesn't work as it should,
even without a GUI?
>
> I know UNIX is all about solving problems, but is it
really interesting to
> make it apparently deliberatly so difficult for a
newcomer? Is it really
> the policy of those guys to make the entry level to
UNIX difficult, only to
> avoid a breakthrough of UNIX (FreeBSD) to the desktop
users?

You can't really believe it's deliberate. Look how much time
and energy it 
takes to get a damn keyboard, hi-res monitor, etc.. working
from an end-user 
level.  What do you think it takes to program a single
device driver.  Then 
attempt to do it for driver after driver in an almost
infinite variation of 
configurations.  I can't even get HTML to look the same on
my clients 
computer as mine.

>
> I knew the installation, configuration and optimization
of a Unix system
> would take me a lot of time and patience. But after
some weeks, the only
> result, as probably for many others, is an immense
frustration. I cannot
> imagine that people capable of developing such a
complex operating system
> as Unix are unable to offer newcomers a correct and
easy install procedure.
> But probably, that's not their concern.

I would think it's a part of the equation for them, but not
the goal.  I've 
never seen it remotely implied. Personally, I really enjoy
the challenge.  I 
am so far totally intrigued by an indescribable quality of
working with this 
system. 

There are many levels of participation that people like to
engage in for 
different endeavors.  Some people would take a plane to go
across country, 
some would say hey I want to see the sights first hand and
drive across, 
while others would say you're not there unless you cycle
across.  All are 
valid.  I find there's something in each of them.

I've seen many posts like this in the Ubuntu forums. Post
where someone was 
frutrated by the difficulty of getting something to work,
and how there were 
people responsible who were not doing enough or the right
thing or ... 
Compared to FreeBSD that distro is totally easy to get up
and running for all 
kinds of multimedia on all kinds of hardware with a huge
selection of 
applications.  I did not however find it easy at all and at
times was totally 
frustrated.  Unlike some, I find Windows XP to be a fast,
stable and polished 
environment. I got my wireless working in 5 minutes.  It
took me three four 
hour days in Linux. So far FreeBSD has not been co-operating
with my desires 
at all.  There's different levels.  If one doesn't work for
you, you can 
always try something else.

 I find your "strategic question" to be an attempt
to place the responsibility 
of your unmet personal conceptions and expectations on
others.  



>
> Please, guys, if you want FreeBSD to survive and to
become not only a
> server OS, but also a desktop OS, realize that you are
going the wrong way
> by annoying newcomers with a puzzle. I want to learn
Unix, the real Unix.
> Searching a text file for a string with grep, not
launching a tremendous
> memory hungry application under X Window to do so. I
want to learn how to
> pipe Unix commands to get usefull work done.  I want to
learn the ed line
> editor as a starting point for using sed. But please,
don't frustrate me
> from the beginning by making the installation of
FreeBSD so difficult. Drop
> some whistles and bells on which you are working, and
encounter the newbie.

This makes no sense at all.  You claim to be embracing the
command line and 
the learning curve yet complaining that you can't work with
it and that 
somebody else is responsible.

I've experienced huge frustrations.  I haven't accomplished
the most basic of 
my goals in the amount of time I would have expected to have
three times as 
many.  I can relate.  Let's get together and talk about how
hard and 
frustrating it is.  Let's help each other figure stuff out. 
We've hit 
several of the same obstacles.  There are bound to be many
more to come that 
one of us figures out before the other.  Let's share our
successes and 
commiserate in our frustrations.  Let's hope many others
help us, let's not 
expect them to.


>
> Many thanks in advance for your comments.
>
> A frustrated FreeBSD newbie
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On 1/27/06, Jozef Baum <jozef.baumtelenet.be> wrote:
> if you want

If you want it, make it, pray for it,
or pay someone to do it.

I'll admit to having stumbled through the install
dozens of times, still learning.  Every day I learn
something.  But the point of calling it a
"hobbyist"
operating system is to say that it is written and
designed by those who use it.  A more professional
operating system would be one written by people
who have no idea what the end user could or can
do, just code monkeys pushing keys.  The perfect
operating system would be written by people who
cannot or will not (or should not) use computers.
The perfect operating system makes bread and
rides a bicycle and knows which end of  a cigar to
point at a president.

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On Jan 27, 2006, at 6:16 PM, Jozef Baum wrote:

> This posting doesn't contain a technical question about
FreeBSD,  
> rather a
> strategic one.
>
> Some time ago, I wanted to migrate to a Unix
environment, because I  
> wanted
> to have a secure, stable, convenient and efficient
environment for
> developing and running programs, no longer having to
buy a new PC  
> with a new
> OS and applications software every 3 years to support
Bill Gates'  
> only goal
> (becoming and remaining the richest man of the USA). At
the end of  
> the 20th
> century, it took us only a few years to have to upgrade
from Win 95  
> to Win
> 95SE, to Win 98, to Win 98SE, and to Win ME, only to
remain with a  
> poor OS.
> Now, when reinstalling my version of Windows XP, it
takes me more  
> time to
> download and install the SP2 than to install Windows
XP. I wonder  
> how people
> with a low-bandwidth Internet connection do to download
the SP2 for  
> Windows
> XP.
>
> I downloaded Solaris 10 and a lot of documentation
about it, then  
> installed
> Solaris 10. As opposed to Linux and free BSD
implementations of UNIX,
> Solaris looks like a professionally developed operating
system. It  
> seems to
> be1 a very advanced operating system. However, I soon
realized  
> that, when
> one wants a yacht, it is not a good idea to acquire the
Queen Mary  
> II, just
> as it costs too much time to acquire a hotel to have a
cup of coffee.
>
> Then I downloaded what I thought being one of the best
Linux  
> distributions,
> Suse Linux. I tried to install it, but the system got
locked up by  
> something
> so stupid as my nVidia modem. Together with the
heterogeneous  
> quality of
> Linux components, and not at all liking Linus Torvald's
arrogance,  
> I decided
> to abandon Linux.
>
> I came to FreeBSD, with the idea that it had a more
homogeneous  
> quality
> development model, downloaded the FreeBSD 6.0 boot CD
and CD 1 and  
> 2, and
> installed it on my PC, following the handbook.
>
> I knew UNIX is a toolkit intended to IT knowledge
people, so it  
> will never
> perform a breakthrough to the average desktop user. But
my  
> disappointment
> with FreeBSD was great.
>
> In fact, to install FreeBSD, one needs already a lot of
knowledge  
> about the
> system. To acquire that knowledge, one needs experience
on an  
> installed
> system. But to have an installed system, one needs
already a lot of
> knowledge about the system. That's the problem.
>
> The handbook doesn't tell you that, at the "last
chance" message,  
> you have
> to take out the boot CD and to insert CD 1. But if you
don't do so,  
> nothing
> gets installed.
>
> I configured a German ISO keyboard, but many keys don't
work  
> correctly. One
> has to look with Google to find additional information
about  
> configuring a
> German keyboard.
>
> I have a cable Internet connection and my network card
was  
> recognized, but
> getting an IP-address with the DHCP service of my
provider was  
> impossible.
> Again, I had to look up with Google how to allow the
firewall to  
> get an
> IP-addres with my provider's DHCP.
>
> The locate command did not work, as the locate database
seemed to be
> corrupted. I had to figure out how to rebuild this
database.
>
> The root user had a csh, while ordinary users had a sh
shell. I had to
> figure out how to provide the same shell to the root
user and the  
> other
> users, as all those virtual users are all one and the
same person, me.
>
> I tried to setup an X Window environment (nVidia
Geforce video  
> adapter), but
> the horizontal and vertical refresh rates of the
manufacturer  
> didn't work, I
> had to experiment to find out the one X likes. Then I
could startup  
> X, only
> to not having configured at all my German keyboard.
>
> I tried to install emacs during installation, but it
didn't succeed.
> Returning to the post-installation tasks after having
installed the  
> system
> resulted in a successfull installation of emacs
(working only after  
> a system
> reboot).
>
> I could go on for hours with this kind of troubles. But
now comes the
> strategic question.
>
> Why is it that FreeBSD people, who seem to be perfectly
able to  
> formulate
> correct algorithms for implementing UNIX concepts, and
translating  
> them into
> code, don't care at all about a novice user, providing
him with an
> installation program that doesn't work as it should,
even without a  
> GUI?
>
> I know UNIX is all about solving problems, but is it
really  
> interesting to
> make it apparently deliberatly so difficult for a
newcomer? Is it  
> really the
> policy of those guys to make the entry level to UNIX
difficult,  
> only to
> avoid a breakthrough of UNIX (FreeBSD) to the desktop
users?
>
> I knew the installation, configuration and optimization
of a Unix  
> system
> would take me a lot of time and patience. But after
some weeks, the  
> only
> result, as probably for many others, is an immense
frustration. I  
> cannot
> imagine that people capable of developing such a
complex operating  
> system as
> Unix are unable to offer newcomers a correct and easy
install  
> procedure. But
> probably, that's not their concern.
>
> Please, guys, if you want FreeBSD to survive and to
become not only  
> a server
> OS, but also a desktop OS, realize that you are going
the wrong way by
> annoying newcomers with a puzzle. I want to learn Unix,
the real Unix.
> Searching a text file for a string with grep, not
launching a  
> tremendous
> memory hungry application under X Window to do so. I
want to learn  
> how to
> pipe Unix commands to get usefull work done.  I want to
learn the  
> ed line
> editor as a starting point for using sed. But please,
don't  
> frustrate me
> from the beginning by making the installation of
FreeBSD so  
> difficult. Drop
> some whistles and bells on which you are working, and
encounter the  
> newbie.
>
> Many thanks in advance for your comments.
>
> A frustrated FreeBSD newbie

	Btw, until you've worked with Unix for a few years
(approximately  
3.5 now), so don't complain if things don't go as you
expect.
	I started with Redhat, went to Debian, FreeBSD, Fedora Core
1,  
Gentoo, and now I'm in between a flux of Gentoo, FreeBSD and
Mac OSX  
(in many ways a FreeBSD equivalent). Doesn't mean I like
GUI... in  
fact I love my CLI, thank you.
	Also, until you've installed Unix OSes more than 30 times,
don't  
complain to me. I'm sure there are others on this list who
have done  
it quite a bit more as well as quite a bit less.
-Garrett
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Hello Jozef,

Saturday, January 28, 2006, 5:16:04 AM, you wrote:

JB> I wonder how people
JB> with a low-bandwidth Internet connection do to
download the SP2 for Windows
JB> XP.
I can buy pirate dvd with win2k + winXP sp2 corporate +
winXP sp3 for $3 =)

JB> I came to FreeBSD, with the idea that it had a more
homogeneous quality
JB> development model, downloaded the FreeBSD 6.0 boot CD
and CD 1 and 2, and
JB> installed it on my PC, following the handbook.
As i know, CD2 is Live-cd. Not for install, but for repare.

JB> I knew UNIX is a toolkit intended to IT knowledge
people, so it will never
JB> perform a breakthrough to the average desktop user.
But my disappointment
JB> with FreeBSD was great.
FreeBSD not desktop system! It's for servers.
For desktop try Gentoo of pcbsd.

JB> In fact, to install FreeBSD, one needs already a lot
of knowledge about the
JB> system. To acquire that knowledge, one needs
experience on an installed
JB> system. But to have an installed system, one needs
already a lot of
JB> knowledge about the system. That's the problem.
IMHO, you need someone for newbies. As ISBN 0-672-32206-4
(FreeBSD
from Brian Tiemann and Michael C. Urban) (in english. Maybe
you need
do to shop and look someone else in german).

JB> The handbook doesn't tell you that, at the "last
chance" message, you have
JB> to take out the boot CD and to insert CD 1. But if
you don't do so, nothing
JB> gets installed.
You need boot from CD1 and install.
And, handbook is stupid. You need good book, not handbook.

JB> I have a cable Internet connection and my network
card was recognized, but
JB> getting an IP-address with the DHCP service of my
provider was impossible.
You need setup your net from sysinstall
Or "man ifconfig"

JB> Again, I had to look up with Google how to allow the
firewall to get an
JB> IP-addres with my provider's DHCP.
As default, no firewalls enabled

JB> The locate command did not work, as the locate
database seemed to be
JB> corrupted. I had to figure out how to rebuild this
database.
After install you can run /etc/periodic/weekly/310.locate

JB> The root user had a csh, while ordinary users had a
sh shell. I had to
JB> figure out how to provide the same shell to the root
user and the other
JB> users, as all those virtual users are all one and the
same person, me.
zsh much better
For change shell for user try "chsh"

JB> Why is it that FreeBSD people, who seem to be
perfectly able to formulate
JB> correct algorithms for implementing UNIX concepts,
and translating them into
JB> code, don't care at all about a novice user,
providing him with an
JB> installation program that doesn't work as it should,
even without a GUI?
Because FreeBSD not for "novice"... But good books
can help you.

JB> imagine that people capable of developing such a
complex operating system as
JB> Unix are unable to offer newcomers a correct and easy
install procedure. But
JB> probably, that's not their concern.
Install procedure correct and easy. Except X =)
But X on server -- bad idea.

-- 
Best regards,
 Playnet                            mailto:playnetmail333.com

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