RE: RHCE and other certs?

WOW, that was the most negative and downright untrue
assessment I have ever
had the displeasure of reading. 

DO NOT LISTEN TO THAT GARBAGE THAT "Dave" WROTE.

1.) GET CERTS. Yes, they pay off, handsomely. I ONLY hire
people with
certifications. Microsoft, Red Hat, Cisco, doesn't matter.
They not only
show you know the basics, but they show the ability to
learn, the "book
learning's" of a specific product and the tenacity to
follow through.

2.) FORGET the CS bachelors degree, (unless you plan on
working for the
government). I have had to let go all of my engineers who
came in with CS
degrees. They did not have the knowledge in the area they
applied for. The
CS degree gives you an OVERVIEW of various skills, but
nothing in-depth.
It's sad really, but I've found it's true, (even though I
have a CS degree
from GW).

3.) Problem solving. That's the key. Having the mental
ability to problem
solve is the key to a successful tech career. ANYONE can
setup an apache
server connecting to a backend MySql database. My baby
sister (16 years old)
has not only done that, but she can do much, much more.
Practice problem
solving in your area of discipline and you will ultimately
be rewarded.

Angie Moore
President
Moore & Angle IT Consulting, Inc.
Sterling, VA
"We prepare you for the impossible"
 


-----Original Message-----
From: redhat-list-bouncesredhat.com
[mailto:redhat-list-bouncesredhat.com]
On Behalf Of Dave Ihnat
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 8:44 AM
To: General Red Hat Linux discussion list
Subject: Re: RHCE and other certs?

On Mon, Apr 16, 2007 at 10:03:30PM -0700, Evan Klitzke
wrote:
> <<Working on degree, asks about certs>>

In decreasing order of importance:

  1. Experience.  Real experience trumps all--but then, you
somehow have
     to get the chance to get it.  However--self-taught
*does* make
     a difference.  If you can point to a live, running
website on a
     Linux server running Apache, PostgreSQL or MySQL, etc.,
it does
     show both knowledge and the ability to assimilate and
apply knowledge.

  2. CS degree.  This trumps any cert, period.  I mean a
real degree--one
     in which you are trained in data structures,
algorithms, etc.; not
     just a Microsoft coding course.  You will have been
exposed to a
     broader range of different disciplines than you'll
generally be
     able to work in once you have to pay the rent, and
experience has
     shown that it really, really makes a difference.

  3. Certs.  Only good ones--something that really required
study and
     validation.  I've been working in the field for 30
years, and in
     general, in that time I've seen almost all
certs--including that
     of "Professional Engineer" in
Illinois--carried by worthless gits.
     The most worthless are vendor certs that are only
designed to push
     their product.  Especially after the .bomb around
2000-2002, there
     was a glut of "certified" individuals (people
who'd been laid off
     and couldn't find work, so filled their time taking
certs in areas
     in which they had no other expertise.)

I would probably lend credence to, say, Cisco or RH certs. 
Virtually none
to Microsoft.  Others range between those two extremes.

You didn't say what degree you're taking--but if it isn't
CS, it isn't going
to matter nearly as much.  And if it is a vendor-oriented
degree, ditto.  (I
don't CARE if you know VB.  I care that you understand
concepts and problem
solving techniques based on underlying knowledge of
basics.)

Cheers,
--
	Dave Ihnat
	President, DMINET Consulting, Inc.
	dihnatdminet.com
	773/550.0929

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On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 09:50:10AM -0400, Angie Moore
wrote:
> WOW, that was the most negative and downright untrue
assessment I have ever
> had the displeasure of reading. 
> 
> DO NOT LISTEN TO THAT GARBAGE THAT "Dave"
WROTE.

Well, that's the joy of the business world--you're getting
opinions
from two opposite camps.  Both, apparently, own their own
companies,
and both are the kind of people you'll have to face when
seeking a job.

I won't call "Angie" names or denigrate her
opinion.  But I will say that
I've been in this field for 30 years, a consultant for most
of them at
places ranging from Bell Labs, Rockwell, Honeywell, World
Book Discovery,
etc. on down to startups.  Look at who wrote 'cut' and
'paste' for Linux.

So while she may not think much of my opinions, I will state
that they're
at least as valid as what she's spouting.

One thing you should notice that we both agreed on is that
real problem
solving is a major and key underlying thread.  The ability
to reliably
and accurately assess a situation and logically analyze how
to resolve
it trumps any memorized list of answers.

Cheers,
--
	Dave Ihnat
	President, DMINET Consulting, Inc.
	dihnatdminet.com
	773/550.0929

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On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 09:50:10AM -0400, Angie Moore
wrote:
> WOW, that was the most negative and downright untrue
assessment I have ever
> had the displeasure of reading. 
> 
> DO NOT LISTEN TO THAT GARBAGE THAT "Dave"
WROTE.
> 1.) GET CERTS. Yes, they pay off, handsomely. I ONLY
hire people with
> certifications. Microsoft, Red Hat, Cisco, doesn't
matter. They not only
> show you know the basics, but they show the ability to
learn, the "book
> learning's" of a specific product and the tenacity
to follow through.
> 
> 2.) FORGET the CS bachelors degree, (unless you plan on
working for the
> government). I have had to let go all of my engineers
who came in with CS
> degrees. They did not have the knowledge in the area
they applied for. The
> CS degree gives you an OVERVIEW of various skills, but
nothing in-depth.
> It's sad really, but I've found it's true, (even though
I have a CS degree
> from GW).
> 
> 3.) Problem solving. That's the key. Having the mental
ability to problem
> solve is the key to a successful tech career. ANYONE
can setup an apache
> server connecting to a backend MySql database. My baby
sister (16 years old)
> has not only done that, but she can do much, much more.
Practice problem
> solving in your area of discipline and you will
ultimately be rewarded.
> 
> Angie Moore
> President
> Moore & Angle IT Consulting, Inc.
> Sterling, VA
> "We prepare you for the impossible"
>  

Wow.... this absolutely doesn't match up with the
experiences I had
coming out of college.  It very well may be the policy of
Angie Moore,
but for most any other employer and interview I've done a CS
degree is
a basic prerequisite and at the very least gives you a leg
up.

Certs don't hurt, but in my experience I have to agree with
Dave, they
have been the lowest on the priority scale.  A CS degree
gets me in the
door for the interview (along with my resume) and from there
the
Interview is nearly all about the experience and/or of a
technical
nature.

Not trying to discredit Angie, I'm sure she's found great
success with
her hiring philosophies, but in my experience it does not
match up at
all with my interviewing experiences in the least bit.

That's not to say don't get certs at all... I happen to
think RHCE is a
very good cert and the more tools you have the better off
you are.

Just my $0.02.

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