New lists and their usage

OK.  I'm sure this will probably bring upon a ton of
responses, but
let's hope they all stay on-topic.  I'm not posting this to
gentoo-project since I think it belongs here until this is
agreed upon.

So, let's get started:

gentoo-dev: This list is for technical discussion, primarily
between
developers, about development and development-related issues
that
directly affect the tree or current projects.  For now, no
changes are
made to this list.

gentoo-dev-announce: This is the announcement list for
development-related stuff.  Now, there's two ideas for how
to run the
list, that I can think of, but I'm sure there's others.

- Make the list set reply-to to gentoo-dev and automatically
copy any
messages from this list to gentoo-dev...

- Make the list *not* set *any* reply-to, nor strip it, and
allow people
to use the list to announce development-related stuff from
*any* list...
For example, if I'm about to start a discussion on possible
changes to
the releases, I could send a message to gentoo-dev-announce,
which will
start the thread, with gentoo-releng set as the reply-to.  I
would be
responsible for making sure the email was also sent to
gentoo-releng
myself.

gentoo-projects: This list is for... what exactly?  I've not
really
figured that one out just yet.  I know it is supposed to be
pretty much
anything that doesn't fit into gentoo-dev or another
project-specific
list.  Am I correct here?  Is this what everyone thinks this
list is
supposed to be used for?

Anyway, I'd like for us to come up with an agreement on the
usage of
these lists so we can put them into the policies and start
using them
that way.  Remember that there hasn't been consensus (yet)
on the usage
of the lists, so we need to do that as soon as possible.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

On 7/20/07, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2gentoo.org> wrote:

> gentoo-projects: This list is for... what exactly? 
I've not really
> figured that one out just yet.  I know it is supposed
to be pretty much
> anything that doesn't fit into gentoo-dev or another
project-specific
> list.  Am I correct here?  Is this what everyone thinks
this list is
> supposed to be used for?

>From what I can tell by reading the logs of the council
meeting [1],
the purpose of -project is to keep "all the flamewars
and bitching"
off the -dev list.  However, it seems that moderating -dev
should
accomplish that purpose, so I question the need for its
existence.  If
it is not required reading for developers, how is it
substantively
different from -user?

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-log
s/20070614.txt

--
Nathan Smith
Gentoo/PowerPC AT
ndansmithgmail.com
-- 
gentoo-devgentoo.org mailing list

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 15:20:24 -0700
Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2gentoo.org> wrote:
> gentoo-dev-announce: This is the announcement list for
> development-related stuff.  Now, there's two ideas for
how to run the
> list, that I can think of, but I'm sure there's
others.
> 
> - Make the list set reply-to to gentoo-dev and
automatically copy any
> messages from this list to gentoo-dev...

The auto-copy should probably be kept regardless of what we
do with
Reply-To.

> - Make the list *not* set *any* reply-to, nor strip it,
and allow
> people to use the list to announce development-related
stuff from
> *any* list... For example, if I'm about to start a
discussion on
> possible changes to the releases, I could send a
message to
> gentoo-dev-announce, which will start the thread, with
gentoo-releng
> set as the reply-to.  I would be responsible for making
sure the
> email was also sent to gentoo-releng myself.

Hm, I hadn't thought about that but I like it. I like it a
lot. It's so
sexy!

Thanks,
Donnie

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> 
> gentoo-projects: This list is for... what exactly? 
I've not really
> figured that one out just yet.  I know it is supposed
to be pretty much
> anything that doesn't fit into gentoo-dev or another
project-specific
> list.  Am I correct here?  Is this what everyone thinks
this list is
> supposed to be used for?

I figured my explanation in Bug #181368 was enough to get
the idea across, in 
that, anything "non-technical" goes here.  Loosely
translated, and based on my 
understanding from a debian developer on what winds up on
their debian-project 
list, it pretty much means "everything else".

Whether that's what really becomes of the list, I dunno. 
That's part of the fun 
for me.  I guess what I current envision is it becoming what
-dev is today, 
minus all the technical discussions.


--Kumba

-- 
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

"Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels
of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are
elsewhere."  --Elrond
-- 
gentoo-devgentoo.org mailing list

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Duncan wrote:
> Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2gentoo.org> posted
>> gentoo-projects: This list is for... what exactly? 
I've not really
>> figured that one out just yet.  I know it is
supposed to be pretty much
>> anything that doesn't fit into gentoo-dev or
another project-specific
>> list.  Am I correct here?  Is this what everyone
thinks this list is
>> supposed to be used for?
> 
> My take is that if it's gentoo devel but not tech in
nature, it goes 
> there by default.  The short term rule of thumb could
then be post it 
> there if in doubt whether it goes here or there, and if
it's posted here 
> and any dev complains, it goes there, regardless. 
(Once the current 
> subscription snafus get worked out, I'd hope by Monday
or Tuesday at the 
> latest.)
> 

I think this is a good idea.  If the only thing that goes on
-project is
flame wars then the list will die and all the flamewars will
just come
back to -dev...

I'd think that anything non-technical related to the gentoo
distro that
is at a high level should probably go on -project.  That
might be a
place to announce council agendas, council nominations, this
email
thread, etc.

Some seem to be of the mind that -project should be mainly
for stuff
that no developer would want to look at anyway.  The problem
with that
is the whole reason that stuff gets posted to -dev is that
people want
to interact with the -devs - so the traffic will go wherever
the devs
are.  If you want to keep -dev on technical topics then the
interesting
non-technical topics will have to go to -project so that the
list is
taken seriously.  Otherwise all the noise will just be back
on -dev....
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On 7/21/07, Nathan Smith <ndansmithgmail.com> wrote:
> From what I can tell by reading the logs of the council
meeting [1],
> the purpose of -project is to keep "all the
flamewars and bitching"
> off the -dev list.

On 7/21/07, Richard Freeman <richthefreemanclan.net>
wrote:
> I think this is a good idea.  If the only thing that
goes on -project is
> flame wars then the list will die and all the flamewars
will just come
> back to -dev...

What makes you guys think that flamewars or bitching will be
tolerated
on any of our lists ?

Denis.
-- 
gentoo-devgentoo.org mailing list

RYAN HILL WROTE:
> ZOMBIESWIFT/NEW DEVS			-PROJECT
> COUNCIL/TRUSTEE NOMINATIONS		-PROJECT

THEN IT'S WORTH CROSS-POSTING -CORE OR -DEV-ANNOUNCE OR
SIMILAR. I
THOUGHT THAT GOAL OF -PROJECT WAS TO KEEP DEVS AWAY FROM
POISONOUS
CONTENT WITHOUT IMPAIRING THEIR GENTOO-AWARENESS.

> MORE PHOTOS ON PLANET			-PROJECT

PERHAPS A NOTE ON -CORE, AGAIN.

CHEERS,
-JKT

-- 
CD /LOCAL/PUB && MORE BEER > /DEV/MOUTH

ON SUN, 22 JUL 2007 21:26:07 +0200
JAN KUNDRáT <JKTGENTOO.ORG> WROTE:
> RYAN HILL WROTE:
> > ZOMBIESWIFT/NEW DEVS			-PROJECT
> > COUNCIL/TRUSTEE NOMINATIONS		-PROJECT
> 
> THEN IT'S WORTH CROSS-POSTING -CORE OR -DEV-ANNOUNCE OR
SIMILAR. I
> THOUGHT THAT GOAL OF -PROJECT WAS TO KEEP DEVS AWAY
FROM POISONOUS
> CONTENT WITHOUT IMPAIRING THEIR GENTOO-AWARENESS.

AH, YOU MEAN YOU THOUGHT -PROJECT WAS A DUMPING GROUND WHERE
PEOPLE
COULD BE SENT WHEN YOU WANTED TO IGNORE SOMEONE?

-- 
CIARAN MCCREESH

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JAN KUNDRáT WROTE:
> RYAN HILL WROTE:
>> ZOMBIESWIFT/NEW DEVS			-PROJECT
>> COUNCIL/TRUSTEE NOMINATIONS		-PROJECT
> 
> THEN IT'S WORTH CROSS-POSTING -CORE OR -DEV-ANNOUNCE OR
SIMILAR. I
> THOUGHT THAT GOAL OF -PROJECT WAS TO KEEP DEVS AWAY
FROM POISONOUS
> CONTENT WITHOUT IMPAIRING THEIR GENTOO-AWARENESS.
> 

I THOUGHT THE GOAL WAS MORE TO SEPARATE TECHNICAL AND
NON-TECHNICAL
CONTENT - AS MOST OF THE HEAVY-REPLY EMAILS ON -DEV WERE
NON-TECHNICAL
IN NATURE.  THE POLITICS/ETC COULD GO ON -PROJECT.

AS SOMEBODY ELSE POINTED OUT IN A REPLY TO ONE OF MY EMAILS
(WHICH I
TOTALLY AGREE WITH) - FLAMES (AKA POISONOUS CONTENT) AREN'T
WELCOME
ANYWHERE.

IF ANYTHING OF ANY IMPORTANCE AT ALL GETS DISCUSSED ON -DEV,
THEN ALL
THE NON-TECHNICAL STUFF WILL END UP ON -DEV AS WELL AND
NOTHING WILL BE
ACCOMPLISHED BY HAVING THE NEW LIST.  DEVELOPERS WHO ARE
INTERESTED IN
PARTICIPATING IN POLITICS (DEVREL, COC DEBATES,
USER-RELATION
DISCUSSIONS, ETC) SHOULD SUBSCRIBE TO -PROJECT.

ONE THING I WANT TO CAUTION IS A POTENTIALLY-DANGEROUS
MINDSET THAT A
FLAME IS ANY POST THAT ONE PERSONALLY DISAGREES WITH - OR
WHICH A
MAJORITY OF DEVELOPERS DISAGREE WITH.  FLAMES ARE MORE ABOUT
ATTITUDE
AND INTENT - NOT SO MUCH ABOUT VIEWPOINT.  AS AN EXAMPLE I
TENDED TO
DISAGREE WITH THE POINT YOU WERE RAISING, BUT I'D HOPE WE
COULD AGREE
THAT I'M ATTEMPTING TO BE CONSTRUCTIVE IN MY REPLY AND THAT
I'M TRYING
TO FOCUS ON WHAT IS GOOD FOR GENTOO AND NOT MY PERSONAL
AGENDA.  IF I
HAD JUST REPLIED WITH A ONE-LINER OF SOME SORT IT WOULD BE
LESS
CONSTRUCTIVE.  EVEN SO, THIS IS INHERENTLY A POLITICAL
DISCUSSION AND
THOSE DEVS ON THIS LIST WHO WOULD PREFER TO JUST WORK ON
THEIR HERDS AND
NOT WORRY ABOUT MODERATION/ COC/ RELIGIOUS POSITIONS ON
PACKAGE
MANAGERS/ ETC. WOULD PROBABLY PREFER THAT IT TOOK PLACE ON
-PROJECT -
NOT BECAUSE THE DEBATE ISN'T IMPORTANT, BUT SIMPLY BECAUSE
IT ISN'T WHAT
THEY'RE INTERESTED IN READING ABOUT.

I'VE PARTICIPATED IN MODERATED LISTS WHICH WEREN'T PERCEIVED
AS
ONE-SIDED OR AS CREATING A DIVISION BETWEEN VALUED AND
UNVALUED POSTERS.
 OFTEN A MAJORITY OF POSTS ARE MODERATED, AND THE ONLY THING
THE
MODERATOR DOES IS DETERMINE WHETHER THE POST ADDS VALUE TO
THE
CONVERSATION.  ONE-LINERS GET REJECTED REGARDLESS OF WHO
SENDS THEM -
AND GENUINE ARGUMENTS GET ACCEPTED REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY
LINE UP
AGAINST THE PARTY VIEW.  SUCH LISTS BENEFIT FROM A DIVERSITY
OF OPINIONS
AND DON'T GET AS BOGGED-DOWN IN GROUPTHINK.  THEY ALSO TEND
TO BE MORE
INVITING TO OUTSIDERS.

FLAMES REALLY SHOULDN'T BE WELCOME ON ANY LIST.  I KNOW
THERE ARE
POSTERS ON THIS LIST THAT DRIVE MOST OF THE DEVS CRAZY - AND
IT IS EASY
FOR ME TO JUST SAY NOT TO FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE.  I KNOW THAT
WHEN DEVS
DO REPLY WITH ONE-LINERS NOBODY THINKS LESS OF THEM FOR IT
AS A RESULT
(I AM NOT CERTAIN I'D ACT ANY DIFFERENTLY IF I WERE IN THEIR
SHOES).
HOWEVER, THAT ISN'T GOOD FOR THE PROJECT - IT TENDS TO
CREATE A STRONG
CORE TEAM THAT CIRCLES THE WAGONS AGAINST OUTSIDE DISSENT -
WHICH IS
GOOD WHEN THE DISSENT IS JUST AN ANNOYING PARTY OF RAIDERS,
BUT IT CAN
LEAD TO LESS FLEXIBILITY AND AN UNWILLINGNESS TO TOLERATE
DISSENT OF ANY
KIND.  I'M SURE THE XFREE86 TEAM IS STILL A TIGHT-KNIT GROUP
THAT IS
HAPPY WITH THE LICENSING DECISION THEY MADE SOME TIME AGO,
EVEN THOUGH
AS A RESULT THEY'RE ALMOST ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT TO THE FOSS
WORLD NOW.

I THINK THE -DEV / -PROJECT DIVISION IS GOOD, AND I THINK IT
WILL MAKE A
LOT OF DEVS HAPPY - IF FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN THEY DON'T
NEED TO READ
DISCUSSIONS LIKE THIS ONE...    HOWEVER,
IF ANYBODY THINKS THAT IT
WILL SUCCEED IN GETTING RID OF CERTAIN UNPOPULAR VOICES ON
THIS LIST I
THINK THEY WILL BE DISAPPOINTED - THEY WILL GO WHERE THE
DISCUSSION IS.
 AT BEST THE DIVISION WILL LET PEOPLE CHOOSE WHAT DISCUSSION
THEY
PARTICIPATE IN - NOT WHO PARTICIPATES IN THOSE DISCUSSIONS. 
MAYBE WE
CAN JUST BE OPTIMISTIC THAT AT SOME POINT WE'LL LEARN HOW TO
DISAGREE
MATURELY...
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ON SUN, 2007-07-22 AT 21:26 +0200, JAN KUNDRáT WROTE:
> RYAN HILL WROTE:
> > ZOMBIESWIFT/NEW DEVS			-PROJECT
> > COUNCIL/TRUSTEE NOMINATIONS		-PROJECT
> 
> THEN IT'S WORTH CROSS-POSTING -CORE OR -DEV-ANNOUNCE OR
SIMILAR. I
> THOUGHT THAT GOAL OF -PROJECT WAS TO KEEP DEVS AWAY
FROM POISONOUS
> CONTENT WITHOUT IMPAIRING THEIR GENTOO-AWARENESS.

THIS IS WHAT I AM AFRAID OF, AS IT NOW LOOKS LIKE ALL WE'VE
ACCOMPLISHED
IS MAKING IT MORE DIFFICULT FOR SOMEONE TO KEEP THEIR EYES
ON
EVERYTHING.

ALSO, WHAT IS THE POINT OF DEV-ANNOUNCE, THEN?  REALIZE
THAT
DEV-ANNOUNCE AND PROJECT WERE TWO SEPARATE
"SOLUTIONS" FOR THE SAME
"PROBLEM" SO NOW WE HAVE TWO DIFFERENT WAYS OF
GETTING THE SAME POINT
ACROSS.  IF DEV-ANNOUNCE CONTINUES DOWN THE PATH IT IS
CURRENTLY GOING
OF BEING ONLY SOME PRECURSOR TO DEV, I DON'T SEE THE POINT,
AT ALL.  IF
IT IS OPENED UP MORE AS I'D OUTLINED PREVIOUSLY, MAKING IT
USEFUL FOR
*ALL* LISTS, THEN I DEFINITELY SEE THE REASONING.  I'M STILL
NOT SURE I
SEE THE POINT ON PROJECT, THOUGH, SINCE NEARLY ANYTHING
BEING DISCUSSED
ON PROJECT COULD GO TO ANOTHER LIST.  I MEAN, ANYTHING
POLICY-RELATED
COULD GO TO THE APPROPRIATE LIST, SUCH AS GENTOO-COUNCIL,
GENTOO-NFP, OR
GENTOO-DEVREL, SO WHAT EXACTLY *IS* LEFT, ASIDE FROM FLAMES,
THAT IS
NON-TECHNICAL IN NATURE, DOESN'T FALL UNDER THE
COUNCIL/TRUSTEES/DEVREL,
BUT STILL IS A GLOBAL ISSUE?

-- 
CHRIS GIANELLONI
RELEASE ENGINEERING STRATEGIC LEAD
ALPHA/AMD64/X86 ARCHITECTURE TEAMS
GAMES DEVELOPER/COUNCIL MEMBER/FOUNDATION TRUSTEE
GENTOO FOUNDATION