ppc-macos est mort, vive ppc-macos?

While French is high in my personal hit list of languages I
hate the
most, I chose the language for this mail subject as I think
it fits
here.

ppc-macos is dead, long live ppc-macos

Is ppc-macos a phoenix, that reborns from its own ashes? 
Would be nice,
but I think not entirely.  With the ppc-macos team going
down from once
17 to now 2 people, of which one actively supporting the
main tree, and
that one person being me, I feel I'm done with it now. 
ppc-macos in the
tree as it is now is going to die, unless someone steps up
to maintain
it.  I personally, am done with it, in the form it is, which
is more
trouble than happyness sometimes.

What drove me to that descision?  The new council?  Not
really.  What
really drove me there is the existence of a prefixed
portage, and a tree
where I have Vim and Mutt, as most important proofs of
concept.
Unfortunately the amd64 variant of the prefix isn't
entirely working
yet, with many linker problems, but for OSX it seems to work
fine.
Actually, it seems to work better.  And I'm quite happy
with it like
this.

Personally, I'm fed up with the whole Gentoo system, and
the heavy doors
you can only slightly open with the most efforts.  Kito
being mia, also
means one of the biggest driving forces behind prefixed
portage being
gone.  Exg is busy, which leaves me, not knowledgable enough
for most of
the stuff I've done here to get it working.  I won't
really be surprised
if it's done not entirely correct, but so it is.  I'm not
going to pull
the prefix car, write the glep and try to get it accepted by
the rest.

I know prefix is working now.  I use it in the situations
where I wanted
to have it.  I know there will be people completely killing
it.  I hope
there will be people that would like to have it, and see
something in
it.  For me, the proof is there.  It is "done". 
I greatly feel
innovations have no place within Gentoo, which is the
biggest cause for
it's big decay.  We should have a "sync
mechanism" for our prefix tree.
I feel stuck, and in the mudd, I've come far enough to know
I was right.

This is not exactly my resignition lettre.  Officially I
shouldn't
exist, even.  I just want to tell that I've finally given
up on
ppc-macos in the main tree as it is.  I don't need it any
more.

Maybe someone should send this to gentoo-dev even... not
sure.


-- 
Fabian Groffen
Lost Soul From the Gentoo for Mac OS X Town
-- 
gentoo-osxgentoo.org mailing list

On 9/11/06, Grobian <grobiangentoo.org> wrote:
> ppc-macos is dead, long live ppc-macos
>
> Is ppc-macos a phoenix, that reborns from its own
ashes?  Would be nice,
> but I think not entirely.  With the ppc-macos team
going down from once
> 17 to now 2 people, of which one actively supporting
the main tree, and
> that one person being me, I feel I'm done with it now.
 ppc-macos in the
> tree as it is now is going to die, unless someone steps
up to maintain
> it.  I personally, am done with it, in the form it is,
which is more
> trouble than happyness sometimes.

Er, could you summarize what that means for those of us that
have been
waiting to use Gentoo as a fink or darwinports/macports
replacement
since 2004?  Is the project shutting down, or just some part
of it?

Just a bit confused, I thought that some prefixed-progress
was finally
being made.

> What drove me to that descision?  The new council?  Not
really.  What
> really drove me there is the existence of a prefixed
portage, and a tree
> where I have Vim and Mutt, as most important proofs of
concept.
> Unfortunately the amd64 variant of the prefix isn't
entirely working
> yet, with many linker problems, but for OSX it seems to
work fine.
> Actually, it seems to work better.  And I'm quite
happy with it like
> this.

Now I'm doubly confused, since you're saying stuff is
working.  What
is dead and what isn't???

> Personally, I'm fed up with the whole Gentoo system,
and the heavy doors
> you can only slightly open with the most efforts.  Kito
being mia, also
> means one of the biggest driving forces behind prefixed
portage being
> gone.  Exg is busy, which leaves me, not knowledgable
enough for most of
> the stuff I've done here to get it working.  I won't
really be surprised
> if it's done not entirely correct, but so it is.  I'm
not going to pull
> the prefix car, write the glep and try to get it
accepted by the rest.

What about the "gentoo system" are you fed up
with?  Are you talking
about the community system?  Other than your metaphor of
heavy doors,
the rest of your paragraph just points out that you are
doing stuff
all alone.  I'd be happy to help test ebuilds and stuff,
once there's
some beta-quality system to test them with.

> I know prefix is working now.  I use it in the
situations where I wanted
> to have it.  I know there will be people completely
killing it.  I hope
> there will be people that would like to have it, and
see something in
> it.  For me, the proof is there.  It is
"done".  I greatly feel
> innovations have no place within Gentoo, which is the
biggest cause for
> it's big decay.  We should have a "sync
mechanism" for our prefix tree.
> I feel stuck, and in the mudd, I've come far enough to
know I was right.
>
> This is not exactly my resignition lettre.  Officially
I shouldn't
> exist, even.  I just want to tell that I've finally
given up on
> ppc-macos in the main tree as it is.  I don't need it
any more.

There's no sync mechanism for the prefix tree?  That
doesn't sound
very...usable.  Is this the "heavy door" you
were referring to
earlier?

> Maybe someone should send this to gentoo-dev even...
not sure.

Beats me.

Is there anything I can help with?  I'm sick of waiting,
but I only
have superficial experience with toolchain-related issues
and the
inner workings of portage itself.  So I've waited...and
waited...and
waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and
waited...and
waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and
waited...and
waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and
waited...and
waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and
waited...and
waited...and waited...and waited...

~ Nathan
-- 
gentoo-osxgentoo.org mailing list

On 11-09-2006 15:22:03 -0600, Nathan wrote:
> On 9/11/06, Grobian <grobiangentoo.org> wrote:
> >ppc-macos is dead, long live ppc-macos

[snip]

> Er, could you summarize what that means for those of us
that have been
> waiting to use Gentoo as a fink or darwinports/macports
replacement
> since 2004?  Is the project shutting down, or just some
part of it?
> 
> Just a bit confused, I thought that some
prefixed-progress was finally
> being made.

It means that what's in the Gentoo tree now, which was
already
deprecated for ages (there isn't even an official
installer) is dead.
At least from my point of view it is.  The prefix stuff, at
least on
OSX/PPC is usable enough to be a replacement for that.

[snip]

> Now I'm doubly confused, since you're saying stuff is
working.  What
> is dead and what isn't???

I think my previous reply explains that.

> >Personally, I'm fed up with the whole Gentoo
system, and the heavy doors
> >you can only slightly open with the most efforts. 
Kito being mia, also
> >means one of the biggest driving forces behind
prefixed portage being
> >gone.  Exg is busy, which leaves me, not
knowledgable enough for most of
> >the stuff I've done here to get it working.  I
won't really be surprised
> >if it's done not entirely correct, but so it is. 
I'm not going to pull
> >the prefix car, write the glep and try to get it
accepted by the rest.
> 
> What about the "gentoo system" are you fed
up with?  Are you talking
> about the community system?  Other than your metaphor
of heavy doors,
> the rest of your paragraph just points out that you are
doing stuff
> all alone.  I'd be happy to help test ebuilds and
stuff, once there's
> some beta-quality system to test them with.

It's not that people didn't want to help out.  It's just
that we (I?)
need developer help.  And also "acceptance" from
the Gentoo developer
community.  Ideally, we would get prefix support in the main
tree, with
all current arches using PREFIX="", while we
would be the only ones
using PREFIX="/somewhere/else/".  As I feel
right now, I'm not even
going to try to suggest this to the community.

> There's no sync mechanism for the prefix tree?  That
doesn't sound
> very...usable.

I'll try and see what infra can and will do for us.

> Is this the "heavy door" you were referring
to earlier?

Getting infra to do this for us, is part of this heavy door.

> Is there anything I can help with?  I'm sick of
waiting, but I only
> have superficial experience with toolchain-related
issues and the
> inner workings of portage itself.  So I've
waited...and waited...and
> waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and
waited...and
> waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and
waited...and
> waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and
waited...and
> waited...and waited...and waited...and waited...and
waited...and
> waited...and waited...and waited...

Yes, test, test, test.  Try to bootstrap a prefixed system,
ask for help
here, get it running, report which packages miss, which
onces are
outdated, etc.

-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo for Mac OS X Project
-- 
gentoo-osxgentoo.org mailing list

>> Just a bit confused, I thought that some
prefixed-progress was finally
>> being made.
>
> It means that what's in the Gentoo tree now, which was
already
> deprecated for ages (there isn't even an official
installer) is dead.
> At least from my point of view it is.  The prefix
stuff, at least on
> OSX/PPC is usable enough to be a replacement for that.
>

This is sad. Seems there is nolonger a supported way of
building source
packages
for MacOSX into root, to be found without special
environments.
If I wanted to use prefixed trees, I could also use
Darwinports or Frink :(

Sorry about your decision, even if I think you have the
right to do  this.

Regards
Dirk

-- 
gentoo-osxgentoo.org mailing list

On 13-09-2006 09:23:46 +0200, Dirk Schönberger wrote:
> >> Just a bit confused, I thought that some
prefixed-progress was finally
> >> being made.
> >
> > It means that what's in the Gentoo tree now,
which was already
> > deprecated for ages (there isn't even an official
installer) is dead.
> > At least from my point of view it is.  The prefix
stuff, at least on
> > OSX/PPC is usable enough to be a replacement for
that.
> >
> 
> This is sad. Seems there is nolonger a supported way of
building source
> packages
> for MacOSX into root, to be found without special
environments.
> If I wanted to use prefixed trees, I could also use
Darwinports or Frink :(
> 
> Sorry about your decision, even if I think you have the
right to do  this.

use PREFIX=""

I guess creating a profile with all package.provided stuff
would be able
to do it, so a simulation of what you have is there.

-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo for Mac OS X Project
-- 
gentoo-osxgentoo.org mailing list

On 9/13/06, Grobian <grobiangentoo.org> wrote:
> Yes, test, test, test.  Try to bootstrap a prefixed
system, ask for help
> here, get it running, report which packages miss, which
onces are
> outdated, etc.

Where does one start the process?  The wiki?

~ Nathan
-- 
gentoo-osxgentoo.org mailing list

On 13-09-2006 12:46:38 -0600, Nathan wrote:
> On 9/13/06, Grobian <grobiangentoo.org> wrote:
> >Yes, test, test, test.  Try to bootstrap a prefixed
system, ask for help
> >here, get it running, report which packages miss,
which onces are
> >outdated, etc.
> 
> Where does one start the process?  The wiki?

If you can, please.  Feel free to comment on the process,
and ask
whenever you get stuck, or even update the wiki if you
figure something
out that's not in there.

-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level
-- 
gentoo-osxgentoo.org mailing list

On 9/13/06, Grobian <grobiangentoo.org> wrote:
> On 13-09-2006 12:46:38 -0600, Nathan wrote:
> > On 9/13/06, Grobian <grobiangentoo.org> wrote:
> > >Yes, test, test, test.  Try to bootstrap a
prefixed system, ask for help
> > >here, get it running, report which packages
miss, which onces are
> > >outdated, etc.
> >
> > Where does one start the process?  The wiki?
>
> If you can, please.  Feel free to comment on the
process, and ask
> whenever you get stuck, or even update the wiki if you
figure something
> out that's not in there.

Ok, I'm in.  I'll background running through
http://gentoo-w
iki.com/Portage-prefix ... assuming that's the right
page to start on.

~ Nathan
-- 
gentoo-osxgentoo.org mailing list

I htought about this a while before answering, because at
first I wasn't 
really sure what to answer.

On Monday 11 September 2006 21:50, Grobian wrote:
> Is ppc-macos a phoenix, that reborns from its own
ashes?  Would be nice,
> but I think not entirely.  With the ppc-macos team
going down from once
> 17 to now 2 people, of which one actively supporting
the main tree, and
> that one person being me, I feel I'm done with it now.
 ppc-macos in the
> tree as it is now is going to die, unless someone steps
up to maintain
> it.  I personally, am done with it, in the form it is,
which is more
> trouble than happyness sometimes.
I understand how you feel, this is not exactly a clean
situation or an easy 
one.
And I already told you before that this would happen
whenever prefix would 
have been stable enough. Unfortunately you not only hidden
prefix from most 
of the possible users/developers, but also never provided a
status to the 
other fellow developers :/

> For me, the proof is there.  It is "done". 
I greatly feel 
> innovations have no place within Gentoo, which is the
biggest cause for
> it's big decay.
As I said, you've hidden it, you "stole" it
from the eyes of who needed to 
know about it, and now you're stuck in having to bring it
in again, slowly, 
so that it can become the norm. It is bureaucracy mostly?
Yes. Could have 
been avoided? Unlikely. Could have been solved more easily?
Sure.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://farra
gut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/
Gentoo/Alt lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM,
KDE

On 14-09-2006 13:19:06 +0200, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò
wrote:
> I htought about this a while before answering, because
at first I wasn't 
> really sure what to answer.
> 
> On Monday 11 September 2006 21:50, Grobian wrote:
> > Is ppc-macos a phoenix, that reborns from its own
ashes?  Would be nice,
> > but I think not entirely.  With the ppc-macos team
going down from once
> > 17 to now 2 people, of which one actively
supporting the main tree, and
> > that one person being me, I feel I'm done with it
now.  ppc-macos in the
> > tree as it is now is going to die, unless someone
steps up to maintain
> > it.  I personally, am done with it, in the form it
is, which is more
> > trouble than happyness sometimes.
> I understand how you feel, this is not exactly a clean
situation or an easy 
> one.
> And I already told you before that this would happen
whenever prefix would 
> have been stable enough. Unfortunately you not only
hidden prefix from most 
> of the possible users/developers, but also never
provided a status to the 
> other fellow developers :/

You know this is pretty not so true.  We did a GWN message
on it, and
got a lot of shit on that back.  Also fellow developers,
which I talked
to (even gave a presentation on it) in Kranzberg and
Brussels on Gentoo
meetings never showed any interest nor excitement.  Well,
have to be
honest, one or two did, but not the kind of really getting
the hands
dirty.

> > For me, the proof is there.  It is
"done".  I greatly feel 
> > innovations have no place within Gentoo, which is
the biggest cause for
> > it's big decay.
> As I said, you've hidden it, you "stole"
it from the eyes of who needed to 
> know about it, and now you're stuck in having to bring
it in again, slowly, 
> so that it can become the norm. It is bureaucracy
mostly? Yes. Could have 
> been avoided? Unlikely. Could have been solved more
easily? Sure.

You know pretty well how much I am put outside of the game. 
Though I
understand your opinion on this, my role in this case was
clearly pretty
much done after "it".  Not to mention that
basically everything/everyone
that was involved in "it" died afterwards, left,
or considers leaving
pretty soon, feeling all got worse, instead of better.

But, to try and get some of the positive stuff out of your
email, I
consider posting something to -dev or -core.  However, I'm
all but
motivated to do this, as well as clueless how to put it
down.  Basically
I am not really waiting on the "yay let's finally
remove the ppc-macos
keyword from the tree" fests.  I guess they can also
do that without me.
So maybe you have some ideas on that.  Maybe off-list is
better suited.


-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level
-- 
gentoo-osxgentoo.org mailing list