Is Gentoo Healthy? (The Return)

In December 2006 I started a thread titled "Is Gentoo
Healthy?" in
which I was roundly put down for raising the possibility
that the
decline in the number of Gentoo users could possibly affect
the
remaining Gentoo users in a negative way.

Is everyone still toeing that line?  The Gentoo Weekly
Newsletter
hasn't been published in almost two months.  Is Gentoo
destined to be
just another distro starved for contributors and struggling
to stay up
to date?  If so, I really misjudged it.  The meta approach
of Gentoo
is superior to any other in my mind, and I think it's growth
and
potential are being stunted by the "we don't need
them" attitude which
perpetuates Gentoo's lack of usability features for
beginners.

Gentoo needs as many users as possible to reach its
potential.  It's a
short-sighted mistake to think that non-contributing users
do Gentoo
no good.  Non-contributing users become contributors as time
passes.
Car mechanics all start as car drivers.

- Grant
-- 
gentoo-usergentoo.org mailing list

On 7/3/07, Grant <emailgrantgmail.com> wrote:
> In December 2006 I started a thread titled "Is
Gentoo Healthy?" in
> which I was roundly put down for raising the
possibility that the
> decline in the number of Gentoo users could possibly
affect the
> remaining Gentoo users in a negative way.
>
> Is everyone still toeing that line?  The Gentoo Weekly
Newsletter
> hasn't been published in almost two months.  Is Gentoo
destined to be
> just another distro starved for contributors and
struggling to stay up
> to date?  If so, I really misjudged it.  The meta
approach of Gentoo
> is superior to any other in my mind, and I think it's
growth and
> potential are being stunted by the "we don't need
them" attitude which
> perpetuates Gentoo's lack of usability features for
beginners.
>
> Gentoo needs as many users as possible to reach its
potential.  It's a
> short-sighted mistake to think that non-contributing
users do Gentoo
> no good.  Non-contributing users become contributors as
time passes.
> Car mechanics all start as car drivers.
>
> - Grant

Hi Grant,
   I think Gentoo is 'healthy', in the sense that it
continues to
thrive. On the other hand I have, over the last 6-9 months
started to
think of Gentoo as 'mature'. The distro has apparently
become what it
is going to be. While that may not be all I hoped for it is
clearly
worth while and a contributing member of the group of Linux
distros so
that's great.

   As a non-developer, general work-a-day Linux user I do
feel that
Gentoo has lost some of its energy. Maybe that's all part of
becoming
a mature distro. When I first started with Gentoo in (I
think 2000)
this was a very lively place and it was clear that there was
a real
push on to grow the tools, grow the distro, grow the user
base. While
I think that today those metrics would still be considered
valuable,
it is not my view that there is a lot of energy being put
into taking
things to the next level. (Whatever the heck that might
be!)

   Anyway, I value Gentoo greatly. It's been a really great
distro to
me. Folks have treated a non-IT Linux dummy like me with
great respect
and for the most part a pretty gentle hand. I've learned a
lot when I
wanted to. The documentation, in my mind, is second to none
which
makes my life easier. (Sometimes....)

   What's in Gentoo's future? I haven't a clue. I have
wondered a few
times in the last year if I'd have to look for another
distro one of
these days.....but I never have. Two to three years ago that
thought
never entered my mind.

Cheers,
Mark
-- 
gentoo-usergentoo.org mailing list

> > In December 2006 I started a thread titled
"Is Gentoo Healthy?" in
> > which I was roundly put down for raising the
possibility that the
> > decline in the number of Gentoo users could
possibly affect the
> > remaining Gentoo users in a negative way.
> >
> > Is everyone still toeing that line?  The Gentoo
Weekly Newsletter
> > hasn't been published in almost two months.  Is
Gentoo destined to be
> > just another distro starved for contributors and
struggling to stay up
> > to date?  If so, I really misjudged it.  The meta
approach of Gentoo
> > is superior to any other in my mind, and I think
it's growth and
> > potential are being stunted by the "we don't
need them" attitude which
> > perpetuates Gentoo's lack of usability features
for beginners.
> >
> > Gentoo needs as many users as possible to reach
its potential.  It's a
> > short-sighted mistake to think that
non-contributing users do Gentoo
> > no good.  Non-contributing users become
contributors as time passes.
> > Car mechanics all start as car drivers.
> >
> > - Grant
>
> Hi Grant,
>    I think Gentoo is 'healthy', in the sense that it
continues to
> thrive. On the other hand I have, over the last 6-9
months started to
> think of Gentoo as 'mature'. The distro has apparently
become what it
> is going to be. While that may not be all I hoped for
it is clearly
> worth while and a contributing member of the group of
Linux distros so
> that's great.
>
>    As a non-developer, general work-a-day Linux user I
do feel that
> Gentoo has lost some of its energy. Maybe that's all
part of becoming
> a mature distro. When I first started with Gentoo in (I
think 2000)
> this was a very lively place and it was clear that
there was a real
> push on to grow the tools, grow the distro, grow the
user base. While
> I think that today those metrics would still be
considered valuable,
> it is not my view that there is a lot of energy being
put into taking
> things to the next level. (Whatever the heck that might
be!)
>
>    Anyway, I value Gentoo greatly. It's been a really
great distro to
> me. Folks have treated a non-IT Linux dummy like me
with great respect
> and for the most part a pretty gentle hand. I've
learned a lot when I
> wanted to. The documentation, in my mind, is second to
none which
> makes my life easier. (Sometimes....)
>
>    What's in Gentoo's future? I haven't a clue. I have
wondered a few
> times in the last year if I'd have to look for another
distro one of
> these days.....but I never have. Two to three years ago
that thought
> never entered my mind.

Hey Mark,

Thanks for the insight.  I hope it never happens, but if the
day comes
when Gentoo suffers a lack of contributors to such an extent
that I
have to find a new distro, where will I go?  Is Debian the
only other
meta-distro out there?  It's not exactly thriving is it?  Is
the
meta-distro concept perhaps flawed?  The thought of
installing the
latest Ubuntu release, wading through a bunch of software
I'll never
use, and waiting for the next big release before anything is
updated
makes me wanna throw up.

- Grant
-- 
gentoo-usergentoo.org mailing list

On 7/3/07, Grant <emailgrantgmail.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> Hey Mark,
>
> Thanks for the insight.  I hope it never happens, but
if the day comes
> when Gentoo suffers a lack of contributors to such an
extent that I
> have to find a new distro, where will I go?  Is Debian
the only other
> meta-distro out there?  It's not exactly thriving is
it?  Is the
> meta-distro concept perhaps flawed?  The thought of
installing the
> latest Ubuntu release, wading through a bunch of
software I'll never
> use, and waiting for the next big release before
anything is updated
> makes me wanna throw up.
>
> - Grant

Being sort of pragmatic, if it happens it happens and I'll
worry about
it then. While I may have my frustrations with Gentoo they
are
certainly no where near large enough to cause me to even
think of
switching 8 machines in 2 households to something else.
Heck, it's the
devil you know for the devil you don't know when you go that
way and I
still see Gentoo as an angel and not a devil!!!



Cheers,
Mark
-- 
gentoo-usergentoo.org mailing list

On Tuesday 03 July 2007 19:14, Grant wrote:
> Hey Mark,
>
> Thanks for the insight.  I hope it never happens, but
if the day comes
> when Gentoo suffers a lack of contributors to such an
extent that I
> have to find a new distro, where will I go?  Is Debian
the only other
> meta-distro out there?  It's not exactly thriving is
it?  Is the
> meta-distro concept perhaps flawed?  The thought of
installing the
> latest Ubuntu release, wading through a bunch of
software I'll never
> use, and waiting for the next big release before
anything is updated
> makes me wanna throw up.
>
> - Grant

I hope I'm not too of-topic. I've never been able to bring
friends to try out 
Gentoo. Tell them they'll be working for days to get a cli
distro working... 
if they get there, setting up X is sure to be the end of the
experiment.

What I mean is: Gentoo is for experimented users, and those
who'd like to 
become experimented. I consider myself not to be a noob
anymore, after 8 
years of using Linux, but my last gentoo install still waits
to get finished. 
I tried to get sound, and that crashed the nvidia module,
and now I don't 
have time to cure that.

Now, on the next partition, I have installed Sabayon. It's
bloated OK, it's 
not compiled for my machine OK, but I had it up and running
in an hour. I 
still have to test the idea of installing Sabayon, modifying
make.conf and 
emerging world to see what happens.

I think the future of Gentoo could be that: an "easy
install" for the mass, 
and he opportunity for the geeks to tweak that install or
directly go for the 
total customisation.

I'm surprised I haven't heard more about Sabayon on this
list, just as if 
the "real" Gentoo users feel it's a treason.

Thierry

-- 
gentoo-usergentoo.org mailing list

Hello Grant,

> In December 2006 I started a thread titled "Is
Gentoo Healthy?" in
> which I was roundly put down for raising the
possibility that the
> decline in the number of Gentoo users could possibly
affect the
> remaining Gentoo users in a negative way.

What decline in the number of users? Where are there
figures
demonstrating this? There also seem to be a lot more new
developer
announcements than resignations, so it would appear that the
number of
devs is increasing.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Top Oxymorons Number 38: Government organization

On Tue, 3 Jul 2007 19:41:34 +0200
Thierry de Coulon <tcoulondecoulon.ch> wrote:


> I'm surprised I haven't heard more about Sabayon on
this list, just as if 
> the "real" Gentoo users feel it's a treason.
> 
> Thierry

It is nothing of that kind. These, simply, is not the
Sabayon list, but the Gentoo one. No matter if Sabayon
forked from Gentoo, it is a different distro, like Mandrake
or Debian, so, it is not usually a topic for these lists.
The Sabayon list is this:

h
ttp://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/sabayon-list

Sabayon has many differences with Gentoo, starting with the
kernel and the toolchain. Two core pieces, overall, in a
source based meta distro.

-- 
Jesús Guerrero <i92gubojterra.es>
--
gentoo-usergentoo.org mailing list

On Dienstag, 3. Juli 2007, Grant wrote:
> In December 2006 I started a thread titled "Is
Gentoo Healthy?" in
> which I was roundly put down for raising the
possibility that the
> decline in the number of Gentoo users could possibly
affect the
> remaining Gentoo users in a negative way.

no.

gentoo was for a while the exciting new kid. And everybody
flocked to it. 
Especially 'ricers'. The 'decline' you observed is more of a
pruning - the 
type of users who always use the latest 'distri of the
month' are gone, also 
the users who really do not fit in but used gentoo because
it was cool for a 
while.

Every distro has that moment - ubuntu will suffer from that
too.

>
> Is everyone still toeing that line?  The Gentoo Weekly
Newsletter
> hasn't been published in almost two months. 

that is a completly different problem ;)

> Is Gentoo destined to be 
> just another distro starved for contributors and
struggling to stay up
> to date?

hm, couple of new devs in the last two weeks. What was your
question?

> If so, I really misjudged it.  The meta approach of
Gentoo 
> is superior to any other in my mind, and I think it's
growth and
> potential are being stunted by the "we don't need
them" attitude which
> perpetuates Gentoo's lack of usability features for
beginners.

why should a beginner WANT to use gentoo? To get his hands
dirty without being 
forced to, he can start with a much more 'beginner friendly'
distro.

There is no reason nor need to dumb down gentoo to fit
everybody.

>
> Gentoo needs as many users as possible to reach its
potential.  

no. It really does not. The opposite is true. Gentoo does
not need to become 
another dumb 'userfriendly' distro - there are hundreds of
them already. It 
does not need the 'I don't want to learn anything' or 'I
don't read 
documentation' type of user. It does not need the
standard-ubuntu-dau that 
askeds the same stupid (stupid because it is explained in a
sticky topic on 
top of the forum) question again and again and again,
because he is too lazy 
to read an existing thread or use the search feature (look
into the nvnews 
forum for an example).

Gentoo needs users who want to use gentoo for its technical
merits, not 
because it is is 'cool'. We lost the 'cool distro of the
month' users and it 
was a good thing.


> It's a 
> short-sighted mistake to think that non-contributing
users do Gentoo
> no good.  Non-contributing users become contributors as
time passes.
> Car mechanics all start as car drivers.

There are users and users. There are users who try to help
in mailing lists 
and forums and file bugs. There are users who help fellow
gentoo users among 
their friends.

And there are the ones who do nothing at all -except
complaining if something 
does not work (even if it is their own fault).

Gentoo needs the first kind of users - and I would go so far
to say, that it 
got them. Gentoo does NOT need the second kind - and we lost
a lot of them.

I call that win-win.

-- 
gentoo-usergentoo.org mailing list

On Tue, 3 Jul 2007 09:07:24 -0700
Grant <emailgrantgmail.com> wrote:

> In December 2006 I started a thread titled "Is
Gentoo Healthy?" in
> which I was roundly put down for raising the
possibility that the
> decline in the number of Gentoo users could possibly
affect the
> remaining Gentoo users in a negative way.
> 
> Is everyone still toeing that line?  The Gentoo Weekly
Newsletter
> hasn't been published in almost two months.  Is Gentoo
destined to be
> just another distro starved for contributors and
struggling to stay up
> to date?  If so, I really misjudged it.  The meta
approach of Gentoo
> is superior to any other in my mind, and I think it's
growth and
> potential are being stunted by the "we don't need
them" attitude which
> perpetuates Gentoo's lack of usability features for
beginners.
> 
> Gentoo needs as many users as possible to reach its
potential.  It's a
> short-sighted mistake to think that non-contributing
users do Gentoo
> no good.  Non-contributing users become contributors as
time passes.
> Car mechanics all start as car drivers.
> 
> - Grant

As an experience Windows programmer who was moving into
Linux last
summer I started off with Ubuntu. The ease with which it
installed
and updated itself was a big surprise and pleasure. But
then
as my knowledge grew I decided to use a more demanding
distro which in
my case would allow me to learn more about how a Linux
system works;
and so I chose gentoo.

Sure there was a hurdle of a couple of days to get it
installed but I
have not come up against any problems apart from my own lack
of
experience. All in all the choice was a good one.

Gentoo appears to be very stable and the e-builds seem to be
quite up
to date - although I have to use the ~amd64 keyword on most
packages as
x64 support lags behind x86. 


One problem I have however is knowing how
to choose between all the different ways of doing things. I
recently
tried to get the interface to my Kodak camera working and
went down
several blind alleys before discovering that each actual
alley was no
longer the best ways of doing things due to changes in the
kernel or
new tools.

So sure on the surface things do not appear to be changing
much in
gentoo but that does not mean it does not work - just that
it is stable.


Paul

-- 
gentoo-usergentoo.org mailing list

Grant wrote:
> In December 2006 I started a thread titled "Is
Gentoo Healthy?" in
> which I was roundly put down for raising the
possibility that the
> decline in the number of Gentoo users could possibly
affect the
> remaining Gentoo users in a negative way.
> 
> Is everyone still toeing that line?  The Gentoo Weekly
Newsletter
> hasn't been published in almost two months.  Is Gentoo
destined to be
> just another distro starved for contributors and
struggling to stay up
> to date?  If so, I really misjudged it.  The meta
approach of Gentoo
> is superior to any other in my mind, and I think it's
growth and
> potential are being stunted by the "we don't need
them" attitude which
> perpetuates Gentoo's lack of usability features for
beginners.
> 
> Gentoo needs as many users as possible to reach its
potential.  It's a
> short-sighted mistake to think that non-contributing
users do Gentoo
> no good.  Non-contributing users become contributors as
time passes.
> Car mechanics all start as car drivers.
> 
> - Grant

	The startup I work for was bought last Oct. I spent four
months 
migrating to Redhat ES 4.0 as well as dealing with some odd
internal 
software decisions at the new company. Six months later the
whole system 
still doesn't run as well or give me the flexibility I had
with Gentoo.
	On top of that I get to deal with a poorly implemented,
thought out, 
and extremely frustrating home grown package management tool
that wishes 
it was one tenth as powerful as portage. Hell most days I'd
rather have 
straight up RPM over the internal tools. And for anyone that
thinks 
Fortune 1000 companies back port fixes of their PHP 5.1
package because 
their chosen distro doesn't include it (or ninety other
packages we use) 
or test better than unknown thousands of Gentoo users
running ~x86, let 
me disabuse you of that notion right now.

The grass always looks greener on the other side and in
regards to 
Gentoo, it ain't.

kashani
-- 
gentoo-usergentoo.org mailing list