Just one nit to pick: AFAIK Haskell's type system is _way_
beyond simply typed lambda calculus, and
is closer to system F (experts can weigh in here). Not that
this invalidates any of your other points.
Also, I surmise that a big reason Scheme went the strict
route is that it made it much easier to
handle side-effecting computations.
Mike
Benjamin L.Russell wrote:
> On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 00:58:08 -0700, Michael Vanier
> <mvanier cs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
>> FYI there is precedent for this kind of thing in
the functional programming world. PLT Scheme has a
>> Scheme mailing list and also a Scheme-in-education
mailing list, which tackles the problems of
>> trying to teach Scheme to new programmers. If you
start such a mailing list for Haskell, I'd like
>> to be on it.
>
> Thank you for your response.
>
> It is interesting that you should mention PLT Scheme in
particular,
> because my idea was actually indirectly influenced by
the
> education-oriented culture on the plt-scheme mailing
list, where I
> also participate. I use both Hugs (in addition to GHC)
and DrScheme
> frequently in studying Haskell and Scheme, and often
write equivalent
> programs in both Haskell and Scheme. The two main
functional
> programming languages that I studied in college were
Scheme and
> Haskell as well.
>
> Having seen the usefulness of Scheme in studying
programming as part
> of a liberal arts education there, I wondered whether
Haskell could
> not also fulfill this role. I saw no reason that it
couldn't.
>
> However, over the last six months or so, I noticed that
the same kind
> of beginner-level questions on both languages tended to
generate quite
> different responses on plt-scheme and haskell-cafe.
Most of the
> people there are educators, as opposed to researchers,
and they tend
> to be less impatient and more responsive to
beginner-level questions
> on the language, but there is less discussion there of
research-level
> topics. It seemed that beginner-level discussion and
research-level
> discussion were each better served by different
audiences, and that
> beginner-level questions tended to bore and irritate
researchers,
> while research-level discussion tended to intimidate
and weed out
> beginners, particularly those either lacking
mathematical
> sophistication or who did not write in a formal,
academic style. This
> distinction seemed to become especially significant in
mathematical
> topics.
>
> Thus, I perceived a need for a less research-oriented,
more liberal
> arts-oriented discussion forum for educators and
beginner-level
> students of Haskell. This is what led to my proposal.
>
> As an aside, these two languages seem to have an
indirect influence on
> each other. For example, recently, a variety of Scheme
called "Typed
> Scheme" has appeared (as a part of PLT Scheme),
whose syntax loosely
> resembles Haskell. Originally, it did not have type
signatures, but
> these were added later, most likely as a result of
influence from
> either Haskell or a very similar typed functional
programming
> language.
>
> On the other hand, in the paper "A History of
Haskell: Being Lazy With
> Class"
> (http://research.microsoft.com/~simon
pj/papers/history-of-haskell/history.pdf),
> the authors quote (on page 3) an anonymous reviewer as
writing the
> following:
>
>> "An interesting sidelight is that the Friedman
and Wise paper ["Cons should
>> not evaluate its arguments" (Friedman and
Wise, 1976)] inspired Sussman
>> and Steele to examine lazy evaluation in Scheme,
and for a time they
>> weighed whether to make the revised version of
Scheme call-by-name or
>> call-by-value. They eventually chose to retain the
original call-by-value
>> design, reasoning that it seemed much easier to
simulate call-by-name in a
>> call-by-value language (using lambda-expressions as
thunks) than to
>> simulate call-by-value in a call-by-name language
(which requires a separate
>> evaluation-forcing mechanism). Whatever we might
think of that
>> reasoning, we can only speculate on how different
the academic
>> programming-language landscape might be today had
they made the
>> opposite decision."
>
> The influence of Scheme and the participation of Gerry
Sussman in
> early academic conferences in the evolution of
functional programming
> is also mentioned in several other places in that paper
on Haskell.
>
> In addition, the HaskellWiki page on
"Continuation"
> (http:
//www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Continuation) specifically
cites
> Haskellized Scheme examples from Wikipedia.
>
> All this has led me to believe that Haskell should be
fully capable of
> fulfilling a non-strict, purely functional alternative
of Scheme,
> based on the simply typed, rather than the untyped,
lambda calculus,
> in teaching programming as part of a liberal arts
curriculum, too.
>
> But first, we probably need an appropriate mailing list
for this kind
> of discussion.
>
> -- Benjamin L. Russell
>
>> Benjamin L. Russell wrote:
>>> So far, I have received three positive
responses on starting the new Haskell-Edu mailing list, and
no negative responses.
>>>
>>> In the latest response, the respondent
suggested that I post another message to this mailing list
advising readers on how to react. Basically, the
Haskell.org mailing list administrator, Simon Marlow, had
originally suggested that I ask for feedback on my idea from
this mailing list, and wait for the discussion to proceed to
Haskell-Cafe, so for those interested in this idea, please
respond either in this thread or, after a few rounds, in
Haskell-Cafe on whether you agree, disagree, feel neutral,
or have mixed feelings regarding this idea.
>>>
>>> In any case, as the above-mentioned respondent
suggested, rapid responses to questions on the new mailing
list will probably prove vital to keeping it alive.
Participation by educators using Haskell, once Haskell-Edu
is started, would be most welcome.
>>>
>>> Please post your responses initially in this
thread. After a few rounds, this discussion will probably
move to Haskell-Cafe.
>>>
>>> -- Benjamin L. Russell
>>>
>>> --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Benjamin L. Russell
<dekudekuplexyahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell
<dekudekuplexyahoo.com>
>>>> Subject: [Haskell] on starting Haskell-Edu,
a new education-related Haskell-related mailing list
>>>> To: "The Haskell Mailing List"
<haskellhaskell.org>
>>>> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 8:37 PM
>>>> I am interested in starting a new mailing
list on
>>>> Haskell.org, aimed mainly at liberal arts
teachers and
>>>> elementary-level learners of Haskell,
called
>>>> "Haskell-Edu: The Haskell Educational
Mailing
>>>> List." This new mailing list would be
guided by the
>>>> principle that Haskell is useful not just
in research, but
>>>> also in teaching programming as part of a
liberal arts
>>>> education, on a par with Scheme. When I
suggested the idea
>>>> of this mailing list to Simon Marlow, the
Haskell.org
>>>> mailing list administrator, he suggested
that I post this
>>>> idea on The Haskell Mailing List, so I am
posting it here
>>>> to ask for feedback.
>>>>
>>>> The main purposes of this new (proposed)
mailing list would
>>>> be as follows:
>>>>
>>>> 1) To provide a primarily
non-research-oriented discussion
>>>> forum to serve the needs of users wishing
to focus on the
>>>> uses of Haskell in education, such as in
high school and in
>>>> introductory computer science college
courses, as opposed to
>>>> in research.
>>>>
>>>> 2) To provide a primarily
non-research-oriented discussion
>>>> forum to serve the needs of
non-computer-science students
>>>> of Haskell who wish to focus on Haskell as
a language for
>>>> learning programming as part of a
well-rounded a liberal
>>>> arts education, as opposed to an
>>>> engineering/mathematics/science-oriented
education.
>>>>
>>>> Currently, there are two main Haskell
mailing lists:
>>>>
>>>> a) The Haskell Mailing List, currently used
mainly for
>>>> announcements and for non-beginner
discussions
>>>>
>>>> b) The Haskell-Cafe, currently ostensibly
used for
>>>> everything else, but in fact used primarily
for serious
>>>> academic computer-science research-oriented
discussion of
>>>> the language Haskell.
>>>>
>>>> Neither mailing list addresses Haskell as a
tool for
>>>> teaching functional programming as part of
a liberal arts
>>>> education, and while The Haskell Cafe is
ostensibly
>>>> responsible for addressing beginner
questions, I have
>>>> witnessed several instances in which new
users who were not
>>>> familiar with the academic culture of The
Haskell Cafe have
>>>> been frowned upon for either posting
messages that did not
>>>> assume enough mathematical background, or
for posting
>>>> messages that were written in a
tongue-in-cheek style, and
>>>> that therefore did not fit into the serious
tone of the
>>>> mailing list.
>>>>
>>>> (For example, a few months ago, one poster
received a
>>>> private e-mail message from another poster
asking the
>>>> former not to "pollute" The
Haskell-Cafe Mailing
>>>> List for assuming that screen pixel
resolution was somehow
>>>> related to the precision of an algorithm
that picked points
>>>> randomly from a square in approximating pi.
Avoiding this
>>>> question required the knowledge that screen
resolution
>>>> could be considered independently from the
precision of the
>>>> algorithm itself, but while this point may
be elementary to
>>>> mathematicians and researchers, the poster
was not familiar
>>>> enough with the issue to grasp this
immediately, and
>>>> received the above-mentioned response.)
>>>>
>>>> This new mailing list is intended to cover
both the issue
>>>> of teaching Haskell as part of a liberal
arts curriculum,
>>>> and of answering beginner questions about
Haskell from
>>>> students who may not have a sophisticated
mathematics
>>>> background. The primary audience of this
new mailing list
>>>> would be educators and students in a
liberal arts
>>>> curriculum who are interested in studying
Haskell for
>>>> studying functional programming.
Currently, the language
>>>> Scheme is often used in this context (even
though Scheme is
>>>> not a true functional programming
language), but Haskell has
>>>> recently been gaining ground rapidly as a
programming
>>>> language in industry as well, and many
students of Haskell
>>>> may either not have a computer science
background, or may
>>>> not have a sophisticated mathematical
background. Posts
>>>> from such users may tend to irritate
serious researchers,
>>>> who are impatient and hard-pressed for time
to find
>>>> valuable information to aid their research,
but may be
>>>> welcome
>>>> in a more education-focused context.
>>>>
>>>> It would seem that creating a new mailing
list,
>>>> Haskell-Edu, focusing on using Haskell in
teaching
>>>> programming in a liberal arts context, and
fielding
>>>> questions from students in that context,
would help
>>>> increase the scope of Haskell users, and
help spread
>>>> knowledge about Haskell to potential future
users in
>>>> industry. Teachers in a liberal arts
curriculum could
>>>> discuss teaching Haskell in a non-research
context, and
>>>> students of Haskell with a liberal
arts-related background
>>>> would be able to ask elementary questions
to educators
>>>> willing to discuss such questions, without
being expected
>>>> to have a sophisticated mathematical or
computer science
>>>> background.
>>>>
>>>> -- Benjamin L. Russell
>>>>
>>>> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Simon Marlow
>>>> <marlowsdgmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From: Simon Marlow <marlowsdgmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: on starting a new
Haskell-related mailing
>>>> list
>>>>> To: "Benjamin L. Russell"
>>>> <dekudekuplexyahoo.com>
>>>>> Cc: "John Peterson"
>>>> <jpetersonwestern.edu>
>>>>> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 4:20 AM
>>>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>>>
>>>>> Normally we create new mailing lists
when the new list
>>>> has
>>>>> a narrow
>>>>> focus and covers a clearly unoccupied
niche. In this
>>>> case
>>>>> you're
>>>>> proposing a list that is very broad,
and so I think it
>>>>> needs discussion
>>>>> amongst the community before we create
the list, so
>>>> that we
>>>>> can keep a
>>>>> consistent strategy.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's not to say that I disagree with
your
>>>> proposal.
>>>>> But it doesn't
>>>>> seem immediately clear what the focus
would be, and
>>>> why
>>>>> haskell-cafe
>>>>> shouldn't serve the purpose. One thing
that
>>>> isn't
>>>>> clear is whether the
>>>>> list you're proposing is for people
interested in
>>>>> *teaching* Haskell (in
>>>>> which case I'd say it's a great idea),
or
>>>> people
>>>>> *learning* Haskell (in
>>>>> which case I'd consider carefully
whether
>>>> haskell-cafe
>>>>> shoudn't be
>>>>> serving that need). That's something
you need to
>>>>> clarify when proposing
>>>>> this list to the community.
>>>>>
>>>>> So I suggest you send this proposal out
to
>>>>> haskellhaskell.org in the
>>>>> first instance, and see what response
you get.
>>>> Discussion
>>>>> should move
>>>>> to haskell-cafe quickly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Simon
>>>>>
>>>>> Benjamin L. Russell wrote:
>>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Peterson suggested that I send
you an e-mail
>>>>> message requesting you to perform
set-up of a new
>>>>> Haskell-related mailing list that I
plan to
>>>>> moderate/administrate, since he said
that you are the
>>>>> administrator of the mailing lists on
Haskell.org.
>>>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell, and
I am
>>>> interested in
>>>>> starting a new mailing list on Haskell,
which I plan
>>>> to call
>>>>> Haskell-Edu, specifically devoted to
non-research
>>>>> beginner-level educational matters,
guided by the
>>>>> philosophy that Haskell should be more
accessible to
>>>>> non-computer science major students.
>>>>>> This topic is not covered by any of
the other
>>>> mailing
>>>>> lists. I have regularly read both
Haskell and
>>>> Haskell-Cafe
>>>>> for the past six months or so, but the
former is
>>>> devoted to
>>>>> announcements, and the latter de facto
to research
>>>> matters.
>>>>> Also, the general tone of Haskell-Cafe
is overly
>>>> academic
>>>>> and research-oriented, and I feel that
this creates an
>>>>> unnecessary learning curve for
non-computer science
>>>> majors
>>>>> interested in learning Haskell.
>>>>>> Since John Peterson recommended
that I request
>>>> you to
>>>>> set-up the mailing list on Haskell.org,
could you
>>>> please
>>>>> set it whenever you have free time, as
follows:
>>>>>> Name of Mailing List: Haskell-Edu
>>>>>> E-mail Address:
haskell-eduhaskell.org
>>>>>> Description: The
Haskell-Edu Mailing
>>>> List:
>>>>> Discussion About Non-research Issues on
Haskell in
>>>>> Education
>>>>>> Could you please advise me on what
I need to do
>>>> to
>>>>> start this mailing list? Should I host
it on
>>>> haskell.org,
>>>>> or just start it by myself using a
non-Haskell.org
>>>> mailing
>>>>> list service? Also, how should I have
it listed in
>>>> the
>>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing
Lists"
>>>>> (http://www.ha
skell.org/mailman/listinfo) page for the
>>>>> benefit of other members of the Haskell
community?
>>>>>> Thank you very much for your time
and
>>>> cooperation.
>>>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Benjamin L. Russell
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, John Peterson
>>>>> <jpetersonwestern.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>> From: John Peterson
>>>> <jpetersonwestern.edu>
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: on starting a new
>>>> Haskell-related
>>>>> mailing list
>>>>>>> To: "Benjamin L.
Russell"
>>>>> <dekudekuplexyahoo.com>
>>>>>>> Date: Friday, June 27, 2008,
12:05 AM
>>>>>>> Hi Benjamin,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no problem starting a
new mailing
>>>>> list. Simon
>>>>>>> Marlow is the administrator of
our lists - if
>>>> you
>>>>> drop him
>>>>>>> and email he'll do the setup
for
>>>> Haskell.org.
>>>>> Once the
>>>>>>> list is going, you can go into
the wiki and
>>>> add it
>>>>> to the
>>>>>>> appropriate pages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We've had a bunch of these
special
>>>> interest
>>>>> lists and
>>>>>>> most of them go dead after a
few months but
>>>> you
>>>>> never know
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>> --- On Thu, 6/26/08, Benjamin L.
Russell
>>>>> <dekudekuplexyahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> From: Benjamin L. Russell
>>>>> <dekudekuplexyahoo.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: on starting a new
Haskell-related
>>>> mailing
>>>>> list
>>>>>>> To: "John Peterson"
>>>>> <jpetersonwestern.edu>
>>>>>>> Date: Thursday, June 26, 2008,
4:37 PM
>>>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My name is Benjamin L. Russell,
and I am
>>>>> interested in
>>>>>>> starting a new mailing list on
Haskell, which
>>>> I
>>>>> plan to
>>>>>>> call Haskell-Edu, specifically
devoted to
>>>>> non-research
>>>>>>> beginner-level educational
matters, guided by
>>>> the
>>>>>>> philosophy that Haskell should
be more
>>>> accessible
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> non-computer science major
students. (This
>>>>> message is
>>>>>>> being addressed to you because
I had already
>>>> sent
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> portion below twice to other
administrators
>>>> at
>>>>> Haskell.org,
>>>>>>> first to mailman-ownerhaskell.org, and then
>>>> to
>>>>>>> simonmarhaskellgmail.com, but had not
>>>> received a
>>>>> response
>>>>>>> on either occasion.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This topic is not covered by
any of the other
>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>> lists. I have regularly read
both Haskell
>>>> and
>>>>> Haskell-Cafe
>>>>>>> for the past six months or so,
but the former
>>>> is
>>>>> devoted to
>>>>>>> announcements, and the latter
de facto to
>>>> research
>>>>> matters.
>>>>>>> Also, the general tone of
Haskell-Cafe is
>>>> overly
>>>>> academic
>>>>>>> and research-oriented, and I
feel that this
>>>>> creates an
>>>>>>> unnecessary learning curve for
non-computer
>>>>> science majors
>>>>>>> interested in learning
Haskell.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Could you please advise me on
what I need to
>>>> do to
>>>>> start
>>>>>>> this mailing list? Should I
host it on
>>>>> haskell.org, or
>>>>>>> just start it by myself using
a
>>>> non-Haskell.org
>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>> list service? Also, how should
I have it
>>>> listed
>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> "www.haskell.org Mailing
Lists"
>>>>>>> (http://www.ha
skell.org/mailman/listinfo)
>>>> page for
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> benefit of other members of the
Haskell
>>>> community?
>>>>>>> Thank you very much for your
time and
>>>> cooperation.
>>>>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Benjamin L. Russell
>>>>
_______________________________________________
>>>> Haskell mailing list
>>>> Haskellhaskell.org
>>>> http:
//www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell
>>>
_______________________________________________
>>> Haskell mailing list
>>> Haskellhaskell.org
>>> http:
//www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Haskellhaskell.org
> http:
//www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell
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