Hula news, ending?

Hello there

i have been a while offline, so after reading a LOT of
emails, i am
going to make a fast summary and see if people agrees.

there are some points in the agenda:

1. Novell had not led out the property of website's content,
domains,
templates, etc.

2. Start a Demo server

3. Hosting offers


As i can read, Sebastian is impatient ... i think we all
are, but please
be patient. Forking will led to make hula disappear or
people will work
in two equal projects. This is called a bad human resources
option.
Other people don't want to contribute still because hula is
still at
novell ... I can agree with them, but, the copyright is
yours. If you
want to contribute, please do so.
I think there is no other chance than to wait.


About the demo server, i think the option about OSDL is very
good and
should move on for hula to have some marketing. The idea of
a VM is very
good, mainly for security reasons.
The should setup a demo server because it would get
visibility for hula.
Also, when novell gives the final decision, we should also
release a
"technology preview " (PR) release, even if it is
development, so we can
gain more visibility and users will test an actual release (
this is
what everyone want, don't we?)

I want to thank all the offers that have been made for
hosting hula.
i think we can consider only 2 options:
 - novell to borrow hula one or 2 servers
 - host hula  OSDL
Novell will not lose all their interest in hula and making
the servers
to be theirs can make them to support ( by this i mean to
have people
directly working on hula again).
Also, OSDL offers good conditions for hosting and i think it
can be a
consensus.

I wish that you have had a very good Christmas with many
presents. Have
a happy new year ... and don't forget to enter with the
right foot in
2007.

-- 
Best Regards,
--
Luis Matos

_______________________________________________
Hula-general mailing list
Hula-generalforge.novell.com
http://forge.novell.com/mailman/listinfo/hula-general

The question to fork is likely becoming a flame war. ;)

Everybody has their own opinion here. I think there are very
strong arguments for both sides.
In my opinion, forking would not be so bad for the project.
In the past, the project appeared to be dead to the public
and due to the latest news from novell, an obvious
subjection  would not be the best promotion for the project.

Before the breaking news that novell is going to quit hula,
the public might have thought that there are spider webs
around hula. After that there was a short peak of attention
but right now we are loosing that attraction by waiting for
a legal decision from novell. The code is GPLed and we have
developers willing to contribute code but waiting for a
clear situation. Why not giving them the clear situation and
inventing a brand new project or even environment for them.
BTW a fork can overcome and overtake the original project
for sure, looking at Xorg or Beryl. These projects are now
more widely accepted than the original ones.

A fork would attract new attention to the project and would
show people, hey we are moving, we are rejuvenating and now
something is going on. Come here and help.

I think, relying on the original environment / servers and
even the name could stop others because they have no idea
that hula is now driven by a community and not novell any
more. I am not sure if this is still a question, but hula
would benefit from cutting the bands between novell and the
project.

Sure, forking could lead projects to death by splitting the
strength of developers, but hey, there is nobody except us
in the project and if we would fork or just move the
project, there would be nobody left. We wouldn't loose much
except the old "spider webbed" and greying image
of a (in the view of the public) lethargic project.

I don't want to bash hula or novell, please don't get me
wrong. I really love hula as everybody else here on the list
and I really love where it comes from and in my opinion the
netmail core is the way to go. That is the reason why we all
are here. I really want to see the project moving and
evolving, I just want to support Sebastians opinion.

Cheers,
Manuel


On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:13:18 +0000, Luis Matos <gassotiliamatos.ath.cx> wrote:
> Hello there
> 
> i have been a while offline, so after reading a LOT of
emails, i am
> going to make a fast summary and see if people agrees.
> 
> there are some points in the agenda:
> 
> 1. Novell had not led out the property of website's
content, domains,
> templates, etc.
> 
> 2. Start a Demo server
> 
> 3. Hosting offers
> 
> 
> As i can read, Sebastian is impatient ... i think we
all are, but please
> be patient. Forking will led to make hula disappear or
people will work
> in two equal projects. This is called a bad human
resources option.
> Other people don't want to contribute still because
hula is still at
> novell ... I can agree with them, but, the copyright is
yours. If you
> want to contribute, please do so.
> I think there is no other chance than to wait.
> 
> 
> About the demo server, i think the option about OSDL is
very good and
> should move on for hula to have some marketing. The
idea of a VM is very
> good, mainly for security reasons.
> The should setup a demo server because it would get
visibility for hula.
> Also, when novell gives the final decision, we should
also release a
> "technology preview " (PR) release, even if
it is development, so we can
> gain more visibility and users will test an actual
release ( this is
> what everyone want, don't we?)
> 
> I want to thank all the offers that have been made for
hosting hula.
> i think we can consider only 2 options:
>  - novell to borrow hula one or 2 servers
>  - host hula  OSDL
> Novell will not lose all their interest in hula and
making the servers
> to be theirs can make them to support ( by this i mean
to have people
> directly working on hula again).
> Also, OSDL offers good conditions for hosting and i
think it can be a
> consensus.
> 
> I wish that you have had a very good Christmas with
many presents. Have
> a happy new year ... and don't forget to enter with the
right foot in
> 2007.
> 
> --
> Best Regards,
> --
> Luis Matos
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hula-general mailing list
> Hula-generalforge.novell.com
> http://forge.novell.com/mailman/listinfo/hula-general


_______________________________________________
Hula-general mailing list
Hula-generalforge.novell.com
http://forge.novell.com/mailman/listinfo/hula-general

Qua, 2006-12-27 ās 17:35 +0100, Manu escreveu:
> The question to fork is likely becoming a flame war. ;)
> 
> Everybody has their own opinion here. I think there are
very strong
> arguments for both sides.
> In my opinion, forking would not be so bad for the
project. In the
> past, the project appeared to be dead to the public and
due to the
> latest news from novell, an obvious subjection  would
not be the best
> promotion for the project.

let me agree with you and show that forking is wrong.
> 
> Before the breaking news that novell is going to quit
hula, the public
> might have thought that there are spider webs around
hula. After that
> there was a short peak of attention but right now we
are loosing that
> attraction by waiting for a legal decision from novell.
The code is
> GPLed and we have developers willing to contribute code
but waiting
> for a clear situation. Why not giving them the clear
situation and
> inventing a brand new project or even environment for
them. BTW a fork
> can overcome and overtake the original project for
sure, looking at
> Xorg or Beryl. These projects are now more widely
accepted than the
> original ones.

Agree but i think we need to stay with the brand, the
websites' content
and their domains. We have also to let the door opened for
novell ...
don't we? Their contributions can be huge if they afterwords
make hula
the substitute for netmail.
> 
> A fork would attract new attention to the project and
would show
> people, hey we are moving, we are rejuvenating and now
something is
> going on. Come here and help.

I agree ... but see the previous point.

> 
> I think, relying on the original environment / servers
and even the
> name could stop others because they have no idea that
hula is now
> driven by a community and not novell any more. I am not
sure if this
> is still a question, but hula would benefit from
cutting the bands
> between novell and the project.

i think the same name attracts people ... people that will
realize that
it is no longer a novell a project.


> 
> Sure, forking could lead projects to death by splitting
the strength
> of developers, but hey, there is nobody except us in
the project and
> if we would fork or just move the project, there would
be nobody left.
> We wouldn't loose much except the old "spider
webbed" and greying
> image of a (in the view of the public) lethargic
project.
> 
> I don't want to bash hula or novell, please don't get
me wrong. I
> really love hula as everybody else here on the list and
I really love
> where it comes from and in my opinion the netmail core
is the way to
> go. That is the reason why we all are here. I really
want to see the
> project moving and evolving, I just want to support
Sebastians
> opinion.

as i said before ... let's wait a little longer. We've
waited longer
before!

We are on the news ... for a little more time. let's wait a
bit more.

I don't really want to fork hula because there is no reason
to do that
*NOW*.

We are really going to move AWAY from the actual structure,
that's for
sure and more likely away from novell's servers.

We are just waiting for (legal) permission from novell to do
so.

The forum and the demo server can buy us some time on
media's mouth.

the one thing that i really think that it's important is to
provide
tools for users to feedback quickly, like changing the
feedback email
address and the bugzilla.

The developers can contribute, Alex has svn write access and
can include
patches that are sent to the -dev list.

If someone is not in the will to sign into the list, please
mail one of
the developers or *me* that i will post it into the list
(happened
before).


> 
> Cheers,
> Manuel 
-- 
Best Regards,
--
Luis Matos

_______________________________________________
Hula-general mailing list
Hula-generalforge.novell.com
http://forge.novell.com/mailman/listinfo/hula-general

On Wed, 2006-12-27 at 16:51 +0000, Luis Matos wrote:
> I don't really want to fork hula because there is no
reason to do that
> *NOW*.
> ...
> 
> We are just waiting for (legal) permission from novell
to do so.

Just to be clear; the code itself, since it is GPL'd, can be
taken by
anyone - Novell's permission isn't required. 

What we need from Novell is the other assets of the project,
and the
legal clearance of those associated assets. I would be very
afraid that
"forking" the project would signal to Novell that
we are not interested
in those assets. I also don't think it's fair to be
dissatisfied with
Novell for not having sorted this all out over Christmas.

Of course we could change the name of the project and go our
own way. I
would be very much against that. Hula already has an
excellent brand and
great artwork, I don't see the point of throwing that away -
particularly since there is no technical reason anyone has
raised for
forking the project. In particular, there are a couple of us
with svn
write access, and we can and will accept patches from
anyone.

> the one thing that i really think that it's important
is to provide
> tools for users to feedback quickly, like changing the
feedback email
> address and the bugzilla.

That's not a bad idea at all.

Cheers,

Alex.

_______________________________________________
Hula-general mailing list
Hula-generalforge.novell.com
http://forge.novell.com/mailman/listinfo/hula-general

Am 27.12.2006 um 17:51 schrieb Luis Matos:

> Qua, 2006-12-27 ās 17:35 +0100, Manu escreveu:
>> The question to fork is likely becoming a flame
war. ;)
>>
>> Everybody has their own opinion here. I think there
are very strong
>> arguments for both sides.
>> In my opinion, forking would not be so bad for the
project. In the
>> past, the project appeared to be dead to the public
and due to the
>> latest news from novell, an obvious subjection 
would not be the best
>> promotion for the project.
>
> let me agree with you and show that forking is wrong.
>>
>> Before the breaking news that novell is going to
quit hula, the  
>> public
>> might have thought that there are spider webs
around hula. After that
>> there was a short peak of attention but right now
we are loosing that
>> attraction by waiting for a legal decision from
novell. The code is
>> GPLed and we have developers willing to contribute
code but waiting
>> for a clear situation. Why not giving them the
clear situation and
>> inventing a brand new project or even environment
for them. BTW a  
>> fork
>> can overcome and overtake the original project for
sure, looking at
>> Xorg or Beryl. These projects are now more widely
accepted than the
>> original ones.
>
> Agree but i think we need to stay with the brand, the
websites'  
> content
> and their domains. We have also to let the door opened
for novell ...
> don't we? Their contributions can be huge if they
afterwords make hula
> the substitute for netmail.

A future should be possible without Novell or the project
is really dead. Because that means to wait for a economic
decision.
No one wants to do the work for a project they got payed
for.

>>
>> A fork would attract new attention to the project
and would show
>> people, hey we are moving, we are rejuvenating and
now something is
>> going on. Come here and help.
>
> I agree ... but see the previous point.
>
>>
>> I think, relying on the original environment /
servers and even the
>> name could stop others because they have no idea
that hula is now
>> driven by a community and not novell any more. I am
not sure if this
>> is still a question, but hula would benefit from
cutting the bands
>> between novell and the project.
>
> i think the same name attracts people ... people that
will realize  
> that
> it is no longer a novell a project.

people don't know Hula. Hula is just a name and means
nothing
about the code and right now it's chance to rename it.

>
>
>>
>> Sure, forking could lead projects to death by
splitting the strength
>> of developers, but hey, there is nobody except us
in the project and
>> if we would fork or just move the project, there
would be nobody  
>> left.
>> We wouldn't loose much except the old "spider
webbed" and greying
>> image of a (in the view of the public) lethargic
project.
>>
>> I don't want to bash hula or novell, please don't
get me wrong. I
>> really love hula as everybody else here on the list
and I really love
>> where it comes from and in my opinion the netmail
core is the way to
>> go. That is the reason why we all are here. I
really want to see the
>> project moving and evolving, I just want to support
Sebastians
>> opinion.
>
> as i said before ... let's wait a little longer. We've
waited longer
> before!
>
> We are on the news ... for a little more time. let's
wait a bit more.
>
> I don't really want to fork hula because there is no
reason to do that
> *NOW*.
>
> We are really going to move AWAY from the actual
structure, that's for
> sure and more likely away from novell's servers.

moving away means that only the domains and the name stays
the same, so why don't change it?!

>
> We are just waiting for (legal) permission from novell
to do so.
>
> The forum and the demo server can buy us some time on
media's mouth.

no one outside the list knows the forum and a demo server
makes
no sense with a beta or stable release. email is mission
critical and
people should be able to use it.

>
> the one thing that i really think that it's important
is to provide
> tools for users to feedback quickly, like changing the
feedback email
> address and the bugzilla.

first, new infrastructure.

>
> The developers can contribute, Alex has svn write
access and can  
> include
> patches that are sent to the -dev list.
>

developers don't want to contribute code to a project who
has
no control over the infrastructure.

> If someone is not in the will to sign into the list,
please mail  
> one of
> the developers or *me* that i will post it into the
list (happened
> before).
>
>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Manuel
> -- 
> Best Regards,
> --
> Luis Matos
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hula-general mailing list
> Hula-generalforge.novell.com
> http://forge.novell.com/mailman/listinfo/hula-general

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Hula-general mailing list
Hula-generalforge.novell.com
http://forge.novell.com/mailman/listinfo/hula-general