Re: Re: A way or so to sequester CO2 ?

Tom, thank you!  I knew there had been some progress in this
area, but not on 
this scale. 

We have lots and lots of sub-standard water in Arizona, New
Mexico, Utah and 
other arid regions here in the USA where this solution could
be applied on a 
very wide scale.  Regions downwind of such desert fish farms
would also tend 
over time to become less desperately thirsty. 

Best shot: maybe THIS becomes the major industry of those
now-ruined areas of 
the Amazon where the rainforest was already destroyed and
the subsequent 
grazing lands turned to desert.  Get a lot of the
undrinkable water back in there 
for fish farming and thence back into irrigation for new
trees, the entire 
profitable enterprise hiring people away from the
slash-&-burn forms of farming.  
 ....win 

In a message dated 2/27/2007 2:44:44 AM Eastern Standard
Time, 
tomhernachyahoo.com writes:

> An interesting artice on desert fish farming. Perhaps
an important 
> adjunct to any proposal of greening the deserts.
> 
> http://www.dailystaregypt.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=44
28
> 
> Regards, Tom
> 
> --- In imagestream@yahoogroups.com, wwenger101...
wrote:
> >
> >I hope that those who have been opposed to
discussing any possible 
> >relationship between changing CO2 levels in the
atmosphere and 
> changes in global 
> >climate, won't mind too much if I touch on a notion
here which 
> could significantly 
> >accelerate the sequestering of CO2 out of the
atmosphere... 
> >
> >Some elements toward the notion: 
> >
> >1) In jockeying for CO2 credits, some Japanese
firms are now paying 
> farmers 
> >around the world to undertake agricultural
practices whose CO2 
> budget will 
> >result in net sequestering of that greenhouse gas
instead of its 
> net release.  
> >These include a number of simple measures whose
result is to 
> increase the carbon 
> >content of the soil instead of depleting it as most
farming 
> practices do 
> >today.  These include the mulching of the stalks of
oats and other 
> grains and 
> >returning the mulched product into the soil. 
By-product: with 
> richer carbon 
> >content, the soil holds moisture better and is not
as vulnerable to 
> fluctuations in 
> >rainfall. 
> >
> >2) The finding by our little thinktank, before
America's disastrous 
> invasion 
> >of Iraq,  that the technology for de-salting water
had improved so 
> far that 
> >some normal American cities, not just cities in the
Arabian desert, 
> are now 
> >finding it economical to provide their municipal
water supply 
> through such 
> >desalization plants from the ocean. (Our thinktank
had proposed 
> that the USA offer, 
> >in return for Saddam's bloodless departure, to
irrigate the entire 
> Middle East, 
> >which would have been a pretty irresistable
pressure costing us 
> about $3 
> >billion - contrasted to what the alternative has
cost us!!! - and 
> making us a hero 
> >instead of the ultimate Satan to the seekers of
Allah's Garden.)  
> >
> >3) There are now prizes being offered for the best
technology or 
> best way to 
> >sequester more CO2.  See the brief article on a
proposal for 
> fertilizing the 
> >ocean, at 
> >http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/clim
ate-
>
change/mg19325914.300-first-claim-for-cosub2sub-prize.html  

> >
> >4) The world is not short of water.  Three-quarters
of the world is 
> covered 
> >by water, two-thirds of it is covered by sea water.
 The water 
> shortage crisis 
> >we keep hearing about is a problem of distribution,
of water in the 
> wrong form 
> >in the wrong place.  We have way more than enough
water to meet all 
> of 
> >humanity's needs for the foreseeable future, if we
were just 
> handling matters 
> >better. 
> >
> >Another way: 
> >
> >Even as economical as water-desalting has become,
further economies 
> can be 
> >realized through economies-to-scale.  In other
words, pure water 
> from the ocean 
> >can become even cheaper if larger projects are
undertaken. 
> >
> >Perhaps no soil is more stripped barren of CO2 than
is the Sahara 
> Desert.  
> >Deserts have eaten two thirds to three quarters of
the continent of 
> Africa, 
> >homeland of humanity.  (With global warming, desert
as extensive as 
> the Sahara is 
> >projected to be about to replace the Amazon rain
forest even the 
> parts not yet 
> >burned and logged-off, and that process may already
be underway.)  
> >
> >Irrigating the entire Sahara, or desert areas equal
to that, with 
> de-salted 
> >water from the nearest seas, surely would not cost
but a fraction 
> of what our 
> >misadventure in Iraq has cost, and I think it'd be
a wee bit easier 
> to find 
> >partners in that venture than it was to find our
"Coalition of the 
> Willing."  In 
> >the irrigated areas, raise cover crops, mulch and
then return to - 
> I hesitate 
> >to say, "the soil" - the stalks from
those cover crops, year after 
> year.... 
> >
> >I don't know how much CO2 that would sequester, but
it'd be a lot - 
> just as 
> >losing the Amazon to desert would release enormous
amounts of CO2 
> into the 
> >atmosphere.  I don't know the dollar cost either,
though Iraq has 
> cost us 
> >undoubtedly many times more.  (Ah, but THAT was for
a WAR. How can 
> you possibly rally 
> >people's support for merely a CONSTRUCTIVE
project?) 
> >
> >One objection would be that throughout much of the
desert, ground 
> surfaces 
> >are rocky or irregular so that the ground-cover
agricultural phase 
> of the 
> >project would be highly labor-intensive, when what
attracts our 
> attention is stuff 
> >that can be done by automated capital machinery. 
Well, in Africa 
> at least, 
> >South Africa is literally drowning in refugees from
conditions up 
> north.  Labor 
> >is not in shortage. 
> >
> >Right now at least, deserts are not in shortage
either.  Even just 
> in Africa, 
> >there are many other deserts besides the Sahara. 
Every continent 
> has some, 
> >including our own North America and within that our
own USA.  From 
> among all 
> >these various desert regions, if we can apply this
proposed 
> solution to an area 
> >equal to that of the one desert the Sahara, that
might be enough to 
> restore 
> >atmospheric CO2 levels to normal, at least partly
toward normal.  
> Is there 
> >anyone here on the list who has the technical
and/or scientific 
> background to 
> >compute qualtities and costs, so we can know
whether to develop 
> this idea toward 
> >some form of proposal or just to bury it as an
unfeasibility?   
> >
> >Another, preventative action: 
> >
> >It's not yet known if the current drought that is
decimating the 
> remnants of 
> >the Amazon rain forest is just a temporary
fluctuation or whether 
> it is the 
> >beginning of the Big Flip which is due to convert
the region into 
> desert.  But 
> >"an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of
cure."  For a tiny 
> fraction of the 
> >cost of the proposed Sahara project, construct a
few major 
> desalting plants 
> >running water back from the sea up to the
hardest-hit areas, to 
> prevent further 
> >loss of forest to the drought.  That still does not
solve the other 
> >deforestation problems - logging, fires and
slash-&-burn 
> agriculture, but forestalls an 
> >immediate flip into desert and a huge quick boost
to atmospheric 
> CO2 levels. 
> >
> >Acknowledgement: 
> >
> >When we discount the probable effects from various
vested interests 
> funding 
> >studies whose scientific findings come out
favorable to those 
> interest, we do 
> >still have some scientific doubt that human
activities are 
> contributing 
> >significantly toward climate change, and that the
CO2 spike is a 
> significant part of 
> >that contribution.  There is likewise doubt,
however, that human 
> activity is 
> >not a significant contributing factor, and that the
CO2 spike 
> points toward 
> >very serious consequences.  There is no longer any
reasonable doubt 
> left, 
> >however, that the climate is indeed shifting and is
starting to 
> generate serious 
> >consequences.  
> >
> >Whether or not human activities HAVE bent the
climate, it is clear 
> that 
> >humans CAN affect what's going on.  I don't know if
(what, for 
> short, we can call) 
> >the Sahara project would be enough to make a
difference.  It would 
> be good, I 
> >believe, to develop enough information to know
whether or not it 
> would.  Even 
> >thinking about it might help various of us generate
other and 
> better ideas for 
> >affecting what's happening.  Hence, a calculation
or so from those 
> here 
> >capable of rendering same, would be very welcome. 
Thank 
> you.   ....win 
> 




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Tom, excellent story and I would like to draw your attention
to a technique the ancient Amazon Indians used which
unfortunately has been lost by the modern generation.
Thankfully research as uncovered the secrets and if used on
a large scale could lock up vast amounts of carbon. This
technique was called, terra preta or Amazon Black Soil, so
without taking up space on this forum I suggest everyone
take a look at this web page 
   
  http://www.innovations-report
.de/html/berichte/geowissenschaften/bericht-55516.html
   
  if that doesn't work just type in Amazon Black Soil and it
brings up heaps of different sites.
   
  Regards,
  Con

wwenger101aol.com wrote:
          Tom, thank you! I knew there had been some
progress in this area, but not on 
this scale. 

We have lots and lots of sub-standard water in Arizona, New
Mexico, Utah and 
other arid regions here in the USA where this solution could
be applied on a 
very wide scale. Regions downwind of such desert fish farms
would also tend 
over time to become less desperately thirsty. 

Best shot: maybe THIS becomes the major industry of those
now-ruined areas of 
the Amazon where the rainforest was already destroyed and
the subsequent 
grazing lands turned to desert. Get a lot of the undrinkable
water back in there 
for fish farming and thence back into irrigation for new
trees, the entire 
profitable enterprise hiring people away from the
slash-&-burn forms of farming. 
....win 

In a message dated 2/27/2007 2:44:44 AM Eastern Standard
Time, 
tomhernachyahoo.com writes:

> An interesting artice on desert fish farming. Perhaps
an important 
> adjunct to any proposal of greening the deserts.
> 
> http://www.dailystaregypt.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=44
28
> 
> Regards, Tom
> 
> --- In imagestream@yahoogroups.com, wwenger101...
wrote:
> >
> >I hope that those who have been opposed to
discussing any possible 
> >relationship between changing CO2 levels in the
atmosphere and 
> changes in global 
> >climate, won't mind too much if I touch on a notion
here which 
> could significantly 
> >accelerate the sequestering of CO2 out of the
atmosphere... 
> >
> >Some elements toward the notion: 
> >
> >1) In jockeying for CO2 credits, some Japanese
firms are now paying 
> farmers 
> >around the world to undertake agricultural
practices whose CO2 
> budget will 
> >result in net sequestering of that greenhouse gas
instead of its 
> net release. 
> >These include a number of simple measures whose
result is to 
> increase the carbon 
> >content of the soil instead of depleting it as most
farming 
> practices do 
> >today. These include the mulching of the stalks of
oats and other 
> grains and 
> >returning the mulched product into the soil.
By-product: with 
> richer carbon 
> >content, the soil holds moisture better and is not
as vulnerable to 
> fluctuations in 
> >rainfall. 
> >
> >2) The finding by our little thinktank, before
America's disastrous 
> invasion 
> >of Iraq, that the technology for de-salting water
had improved so 
> far that 
> >some normal American cities, not just cities in the
Arabian desert, 
> are now 
> >finding it economical to provide their municipal
water supply 
> through such 
> >desalization plants from the ocean. (Our thinktank
had proposed 
> that the USA offer, 
> >in return for Saddam's bloodless departure, to
irrigate the entire 
> Middle East, 
> >which would have been a pretty irresistable
pressure costing us 
> about $3 
> >billion - contrasted to what the alternative has
cost us!!! - and 
> making us a hero 
> >instead of the ultimate Satan to the seekers of
Allah's Garden.) 
> >
> >3) There are now prizes being offered for the best
technology or 
> best way to 
> >sequester more CO2. See the brief article on a
proposal for 
> fertilizing the 
> >ocean, at 
> >http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/clim
ate-
>
change/mg19325914.300-first-claim-for-cosub2sub-prize.html 
> >
> >4) The world is not short of water. Three-quarters
of the world is 
> covered 
> >by water, two-thirds of it is covered by sea water.
The water 
> shortage crisis 
> >we keep hearing about is a problem of distribution,
of water in the 
> wrong form 
> >in the wrong place. We have way more than enough
water to meet all 
> of 
> >humanity's needs for the foreseeable future, if we
were just 
> handling matters 
> >better. 
> >
> >Another way: 
> >
> >Even as economical as water-desalting has become,
further economies 
> can be 
> >realized through economies-to-scale. In other
words, pure water 
> from the ocean 
> >can become even cheaper if larger projects are
undertaken. 
> >
> >Perhaps no soil is more stripped barren of CO2 than
is the Sahara 
> Desert. 
> >Deserts have eaten two thirds to three quarters of
the continent of 
> Africa, 
> >homeland of humanity. (With global warming, desert
as extensive as 
> the Sahara is 
> >projected to be about to replace the Amazon rain
forest even the 
> parts not yet 
> >burned and logged-off, and that process may already
be underway.) 
> >
> >Irrigating the entire Sahara, or desert areas equal
to that, with 
> de-salted 
> >water from the nearest seas, surely would not cost
but a fraction 
> of what our 
> >misadventure in Iraq has cost, and I think it'd be
a wee bit easier 
> to find 
> >partners in that venture than it was to find our
"Coalition of the 
> Willing." In 
> >the irrigated areas, raise cover crops, mulch and
then return to - 
> I hesitate 
> >to say, "the soil" - the stalks from
those cover crops, year after 
> year.... 
> >
> >I don't know how much CO2 that would sequester, but
it'd be a lot - 
> just as 
> >losing the Amazon to desert would release enormous
amounts of CO2 
> into the 
> >atmosphere. I don't know the dollar cost either,
though Iraq has 
> cost us 
> >undoubtedly many times more. (Ah, but THAT was for
a WAR. How can 
> you possibly rally 
> >people's support for merely a CONSTRUCTIVE
project?) 
> >
> >One objection would be that throughout much of the
desert, ground 
> surfaces 
> >are rocky or irregular so that the ground-cover
agricultural phase 
> of the 
> >project would be highly labor-intensive, when what
attracts our 
> attention is stuff 
> >that can be done by automated capital machinery.
Well, in Africa 
> at least, 
> >South Africa is literally drowning in refugees from
conditions up 
> north. Labor 
> >is not in shortage. 
> >
> >Right now at least, deserts are not in shortage
either. Even just 
> in Africa, 
> >there are many other deserts besides the Sahara.
Every continent 
> has some, 
> >including our own North America and within that our
own USA. From 
> among all 
> >these various desert regions, if we can apply this
proposed 
> solution to an area 
> >equal to that of the one desert the Sahara, that
might be enough to 
> restore 
> >atmospheric CO2 levels to normal, at least partly
toward normal. 
> Is there 
> >anyone here on the list who has the technical
and/or scientific 
> background to 
> >compute qualtities and costs, so we can know
whether to develop 
> this idea toward 
> >some form of proposal or just to bury it as an
unfeasibility? 
> >
> >Another, preventative action: 
> >
> >It's not yet known if the current drought that is
decimating the 
> remnants of 
> >the Amazon rain forest is just a temporary
fluctuation or whether 
> it is the 
> >beginning of the Big Flip which is due to convert
the region into 
> desert. But 
> >"an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of
cure." For a tiny 
> fraction of the 
> >cost of the proposed Sahara project, construct a
few major 
> desalting plants 
> >running water back from the sea up to the
hardest-hit areas, to 
> prevent further 
> >loss of forest to the drought. That still does not
solve the other 
> >deforestation problems - logging, fires and
slash-&-burn 
> agriculture, but forestalls an 
> >immediate flip into desert and a huge quick boost
to atmospheric 
> CO2 levels. 
> >
> >Acknowledgement: 
> >
> >When we discount the probable effects from various
vested interests 
> funding 
> >studies whose scientific findings come out
favorable to those 
> interest, we do 
> >still have some scientific doubt that human
activities are 
> contributing 
> >significantly toward climate change, and that the
CO2 spike is a 
> significant part of 
> >that contribution. There is likewise doubt,
however, that human 
> activity is 
> >not a significant contributing factor, and that the
CO2 spike 
> points toward 
> >very serious consequences. There is no longer any
reasonable doubt 
> left, 
> >however, that the climate is indeed shifting and is
starting to 
> generate serious 
> >consequences. 
> >
> >Whether or not human activities HAVE bent the
climate, it is clear 
> that 
> >humans CAN affect what's going on. I don't know if
(what, for 
> short, we can call) 
> >the Sahara project would be enough to make a
difference. It would 
> be good, I 
> >believe, to develop enough information to know
whether or not it 
> would. Even 
> >thinking about it might help various of us generate
other and 
> better ideas for 
> >affecting what's happening. Hence, a calculation or
so from those 
> here 
> >capable of rendering same, would be very welcome.
Thank 
> you. ....win 
> 

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