(ISF) Freedom of speech -- with controls

You are really touching on the heart of the matter that is
vexing Wikipedia, the "social web" and society
as a whole:  how do you have a system with freedom that is
not overrun by bad guys of various sorts, either random
vandalizers (Wikipedia), deliberate spammers (Yahoo!
groups), or terrorist zealots (society as a whole).

That was the question raised by the Boston Globe article. 
Wikipedia poses the question, but it by no means has proven
itself to be the answer.

And I don't know whether an unmoderated list is the answer.
 The difference between the unmoderated list and Wikipedia
is one of scale. Wikipedia has the law of large numbers
working for it, but an unmoderated Yahoo! group does not. 
My recent favorite analogy is the ant:  unlike you or I,
ants can lift many times their weight, but they also can get
trapped in a drop of water.  In other words, scale matters.

My working background is in setting up and fixing accounting
systems, not just the computer applications but the whole
system including the human operators of the system and the
institutions they interact with (like banks).  One of my
principal interests is in systems of internal control - also
known as checks and balances.  The right set of internal
controls for free speech is a very elusive goal, but one
that is worth pursuing.

My Myers-Briggs is INTP, which means (among other things)
that I am aware of my own and others' secret dark side.  I
would love to see something like Wikipedia work, but I am
also aware that there are forces (perhaps within human
nature) that can prevent that from happening.  Thus I would
love to see a serious discussion of Wikipedia and the social
web, not just "hooray for our side" promotion.

Regards,
Dan Prives
Blogging daily at:  http://www.wheremostne
eded.org




=========================================

The Information Systems Forum is an opt-in, low-traffic,
flame-free distribution list for discussions of information
technology for nonprofit organizations.

To post a message, prepare a regular email and send it to
Information_Systems_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

To join the Information Systems Forum, send a blank email to
Information_Systems_Forum-SUBSCRIBE@yahoogroups.com 

To leave the Information System Forum, send a blank email to
Information_Systems_Forum-UNSUBSCRIBE@yahoogroups.com . 
Please note that there may be a lag (of hours or days)
between the moment that you send the command and the moment
that you stop receiving messages from this group.  Your list
administrator apologizes for this flaw in the YahooGroups
configuration, but has been unable to shorten the lag from
her end of things.  

To send a message to the list administrator (Deborah), email
it to deborah_elizabeth_finnpost.harvard.edu .

To view the message archive, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Information_Systems_Forum 
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Information_Systems_Forum/


<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    Information_Systems_Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.c
om/info/terms/
 

Hi team,

IMO discussion on freedom of speech in the context of
communal discussion forums really miss the point by a wide
margin. Freedom of Speech is the right of any individual to
express themselves without constraint. Freedom of speech
does not include the right to a captive audience. Of equal,
and arguably greater importance is the Freedom we all enjoy
to say "No" (you are free to say what you like;
I am free to choose not to listen).

A Blog (personal web-log), and to a lesser degree WikiPedia
typify freedom of speech (the reason WikiPedia is usually
not deemed a credible resource in academia). Bloggers can
say what they wish without constrain because Blogs are
self-opinionated, they are not a community. The rest of the
world choose to view, or not to view the words of Bloggers
depending on how we exercise our right to say: "Yes,
we wish to hear your words", or: "No, we do not
wish to hear your words". The right to say 'No' is
fundamental and exercised every time we choose to stop
forced advertising and other activities where 'forced
acceptance' is deemed an associated aspect of 'freedom of
speech'. Perhaps the best example of the need to sustain
the right to say "No" is that of the gender
crime.

When we subscribe to a communal discussion forum we enter a
(usually unwritten) contract to comply with accepted
community standards. As recipients of communal input, our
contractual agreement is to accept the comments and thoughts
of others in our Inbox. As authors of communal content, our
contractual agreement is to comply with accepted standards
of behaviour, decorum, and acknowledge all the rights of
those who invite us to contribute through membership of our
community (including the right to maintain communal
standards).

I'm not drawing any comparison to recent events, however
for anyone to cite 'freedom of speech' as an excuse to
breach communal standards on a Community Discussion Forum is
to diminish the right of all other community members to say
"No, we do not wish to receive commentary outside our
accepted standards of behaviour". A Discussion Forum
is not a Blog (it's not a street Soap Box).

Rgds, Don





=========================================

The Information Systems Forum is an opt-in, low-traffic,
flame-free distribution list for discussions of information
technology for nonprofit organizations.

To post a message, prepare a regular email and send it to
Information_Systems_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

To join the Information Systems Forum, send a blank email to
Information_Systems_Forum-SUBSCRIBE@yahoogroups.com 

To leave the Information System Forum, send a blank email to
Information_Systems_Forum-UNSUBSCRIBE@yahoogroups.com . 
Please note that there may be a lag (of hours or days)
between the moment that you send the command and the moment
that you stop receiving messages from this group.  Your list
administrator apologizes for this flaw in the YahooGroups
configuration, but has been unable to shorten the lag from
her end of things.  

To send a message to the list administrator (Deborah), email
it to deborah_elizabeth_finnpost.harvard.edu .

To view the message archive, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Information_Systems_Forum 
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Information_Systems_Forum/


<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    Information_Systems_Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.c
om/info/terms/
 

-----original message-----
>>My Myers-Briggs is INTP, which means (among other
things) that I am  aware of my own and others' secret dark
side.  I would love to see something like Wikipedia work,
but I am also aware that there are forces perhaps within
human nature) that can prevent that from happening. Thus I
would love to see a serious discussion of Wikipedia and the
social web, not just "hooray for our side"
promotion.>>






If (a somewhat big if) the web 2.0 concept proves to be more
than a flash in the pan of exuberant optimism, I think the
next iteration of wikipedia will self-check based on trust
networks.  It's already in place elsewhere, why not there?

See also: Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom (Cory Doctorow).

s




=========================================

The Information Systems Forum is an opt-in, low-traffic,
flame-free distribution list for discussions of information
technology for nonprofit organizations.

To post a message, prepare a regular email and send it to
Information_Systems_Forum@yahoogroups.com 

To join the Information Systems Forum, send a blank email to
Information_Systems_Forum-SUBSCRIBE@yahoogroups.com 

To leave the Information System Forum, send a blank email to
Information_Systems_Forum-UNSUBSCRIBE@yahoogroups.com . 
Please note that there may be a lag (of hours or days)
between the moment that you send the command and the moment
that you stop receiving messages from this group.  Your list
administrator apologizes for this flaw in the YahooGroups
configuration, but has been unable to shorten the lag from
her end of things.  

To send a message to the list administrator (Deborah), email
it to deborah_elizabeth_finnpost.harvard.edu .

To view the message archive, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Information_Systems_Forum 
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Information_Systems_Forum/


<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    Information_Systems_Forum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.c
om/info/terms/