Nonsensical 'bounce' messages from googletalk - confused

A colleague of mine uses Google's jabber service to
communicate with me, but
it's proving very unreliable. The jabber server I'm using
isn't Google's, and
is under my control. Every so often, after sending me a
message, I won't
receive it, and anything up to 20s later he will receive a
message from me
stating:

Your message could not be delivered: "hrmmm",
Reason: ""

(in this example, the message he was sending was 'hrmmm',
just to clarify  )

In the past, this has occurred when my Jabber server is
offline (network
connectivity), but for some reason I still appear online to
him. It's also
happened when there've been no connectivity problems
whatsoever (my server has
been online). I've looked over my server logs after the fact
and found no
relevant errors.
So, as a Jabber user - what does this mean? Is my
client/server set up
incorrectly, his client set up incorrectly, or bugs in
Google's S2S
implementation?

Richard
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Richard Thrippleton wrote:
> A colleague of mine uses Google's jabber service to
communicate with me, but
> it's proving very unreliable. The jabber server I'm
using isn't Google's, and
> is under my control. Every so often, after sending me a
message, I won't
> receive it, and anything up to 20s later he will
receive a message from me
> stating:
> 
> Your message could not be delivered: "hrmmm",
Reason: ""
> 
> (in this example, the message he was sending was
'hrmmm', just to clarify  )
> 
> In the past, this has occurred when my Jabber server is
offline (network
> connectivity), but for some reason I still appear
online to him. It's also
> happened when there've been no connectivity problems
whatsoever (my server has
> been online). I've looked over my server logs after the
fact and found no
> relevant errors.
> So, as a Jabber user - what does this mean? Is my
client/server set up
> incorrectly, his client set up incorrectly, or bugs in
Google's S2S
> implementation?

It sounds like a server-to-server communication problem. Do
you know 
what error your friend receives? Can you perhaps verify the
error using 
a test account running a Jabber client that shows you the
XML stream? I 
don't know the specifics of what might be happening on the
Google Talk 
end of things but getting a look at the raw XML stream there
might help 
debug.

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
XMPP Standards Foundation
http://w
ww.xmpp.org/xsf/people/stpeter.shtml


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On Tue May 22 13:55, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
 
> It sounds like a server-to-server communication
problem. Do you know 
> what error your friend receives? Can you perhaps verify
the error using 
> a test account running a Jabber client that shows you
the XML stream? I 
> don't know the specifics of what might be happening on
the Google Talk 
> end of things but getting a look at the raw XML stream
there might help 
> debug.
The error my friend received was exactly as quoted, with
nothing extra, sadly.

> >Your message could not be delivered:
"hrmmm", Reason: ""

where "hrmmm" was the message he was attempting to
send me.
Apparently it appeared to be a message from me (i.e. I could
paste that to him
in an actual message and he wouldn't be able to tell the
difference), rather
than being indicated as an error by the client.
I'll try getting an XML dump at some point. The only
reliable way to duplicate
this is to force my jabber server off of the 'net without
time to send out
offline presence messages, which I can probably do, then
I'll try talking to
myself from a googletalk account .
Can you recommend any Jabber clients for Linux that are able
to dump the XML?

Richard
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On 5/22/07, Richard Thrippleton <rt-juserret.me.uk> wrote:
> Can you recommend any Jabber clients for Linux that are
able to dump the XML?

Psi is stellar for this.  http://www.psi-im.org/
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On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 10:09:19PM +0100, Richard
Thrippleton wrote:
> On Tue May 22 13:55, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>  
> > It sounds like a server-to-server communication
problem. Do you know 
> > what error your friend receives? Can you perhaps
verify the error using 
> > a test account running a Jabber client that shows
you the XML stream? I 
> > don't know the specifics of what might be
happening on the Google Talk 
> > end of things but getting a look at the raw XML
stream there might help 
> > debug.
> The error my friend received was exactly as quoted,
with nothing extra, sadly.
> 
> > >Your message could not be delivered:
"hrmmm", Reason: ""
> 
> where "hrmmm" was the message he was
attempting to send me.
> Apparently it appeared to be a message from me (i.e. I
could paste that to him
> in an actual message and he wouldn't be able to tell
the difference), rather
> than being indicated as an error by the client.

Right. So he tried to send something to you but it bounced
back to him
and his client didn't handle the message
type="error" very well and
instead of eating the message body or popping up an error
dialog, it
simply showed the message as a normal response. Bad client.

> I'll try getting an XML dump at some point. The only
reliable way to duplicate
> this is to force my jabber server off of the 'net
without time to send out
> offline presence messages, which I can probably do,
then I'll try talking to
> myself from a googletalk account .

Or something like that, yes. 

> Can you recommend any Jabber clients for Linux that are
able to dump the XML?

As mentioned, Psi has a nice XML Console feature.

Peter

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On Tue May 22 13:55, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> 
> It sounds like a server-to-server communication
problem. Do you know 
> what error your friend receives? Can you perhaps verify
the error using 
> a test account running a Jabber client that shows you
the XML stream? I 
> don't know the specifics of what might be happening on
the Google Talk 
> end of things but getting a look at the raw XML stream
there might help 
> debug.
I've just run a test scenario, using Psi and its XML
console, connected to my
(mostly unused) google account. I left a client logged into
my usual server
(rtret.me.uk), checked things were working between them,
then simulated a
sudden unexpected death of the ret.me.uk server. I've
attached the XML output,
and annotated it with comments.

Summary:
The confusing style of error message my friend reported was
probably generated
by his client, in response to correctly formed error
messages from google, so
that's a bad UI issue on the part of his client (Kopete).
Google is noticing that it can't contact ret.me.uk,
generates these errors in
response, but despite this refuses to notify the client that
rtret.me.uk is
offline. From the end-user point of view, this is extremely
confusing - an
apparently online user repeatedly bouncing messages. That
these bounces
sometimes take up to 20s after the message has apparently
sent successfully
only exacerbates the matter. 

Is this normal (specified) behaviour for jabber servers, or
an oversight on
Google's part?

Richard

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Richard Thrippleton wrote:
> On Tue May 22 13:55, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> It sounds like a server-to-server communication
problem. Do you know 
>> what error your friend receives? Can you perhaps
verify the error using 
>> a test account running a Jabber client that shows
you the XML stream? I 
>> don't know the specifics of what might be happening
on the Google Talk 
>> end of things but getting a look at the raw XML
stream there might help 
>> debug.
> I've just run a test scenario, using Psi and its XML
console, connected to my
> (mostly unused) google account. I left a client logged
into my usual server
> (rtret.me.uk), checked things were working between them,
then simulated a
> sudden unexpected death of the ret.me.uk server. I've
attached the XML output,
> and annotated it with comments.
> 
> Summary:
> The confusing style of error message my friend reported
was probably generated
> by his client, in response to correctly formed error
messages from google, so
> that's a bad UI issue on the part of his client
(Kopete).
> Google is noticing that it can't contact ret.me.uk,
generates these errors in
> response, but despite this refuses to notify the client
that rtret.me.uk is
> offline. From the end-user point of view, this is
extremely confusing - an
> apparently online user repeatedly bouncing messages.
That these bounces
> sometimes take up to 20s after the message has
apparently sent successfully
> only exacerbates the matter. 
> 
> Is this normal (specified) behaviour for jabber
servers, or an oversight on
> Google's part?

They may not be sending keepalives over the server-to-server
connection 
in order to determine if the domain on the other end is
really there.

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
XMPP Standards Foundation
http://w
ww.xmpp.org/xsf/people/stpeter.shtml


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On Fri May 25 10:37, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> >Is this normal (specified) behaviour for jabber
servers, or an oversight on
> >Google's part?
>
> They may not be sending keepalives over the
server-to-server connection
> in order to determine if the domain on the other end is
really there.
Well, it might look that way, except that the bounce
messages clearly indicate
that google's server is aware that mine has gone down, so it
*is* doing
keepalives correctly. Anybody know the best way to get a bug
report to Google
over this?

Richard
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Richard Thrippleton wrote:
> On Fri May 25 10:37, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> Is this normal (specified) behaviour for jabber
servers, or an oversight on
>>> Google's part?
>> They may not be sending keepalives over the
server-to-server connection
>> in order to determine if the domain on the other
end is really there.
> Well, it might look that way, except that the bounce
messages clearly indicate
> that google's server is aware that mine has gone down,
so it *is* doing
> keepalives correctly. Anybody know the best way to get
a bug report to Google
> over this?

They don't have an official bug reporting mechanism as far
as I can see, 
but if you post something to this list or send me email
offlist I will 
make sure my contacts know about it. 

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
XMPP Standards Foundation
http://w
ww.xmpp.org/xsf/people/stpeter.shtml


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