Better default toolbar setting

On Sunday 10 September 2006 00:10, Iñaki wrote:
> El Sábado, 9 de Septiembre de 2006 19:18, Stefan Monov
escribió:
> > > > I don't know, but couldn't be a
solution if the future KDE guidelines
> > > > force the width of the icons in
toolbars? In this way the developers
> > > > and translators will be forced to use
short text.
> > > yes, the HIG almost certainly will have to do
this.
> > Okay, then I withdraw my first claim - that the
width wouldn't be
> > constant. 
> Why not? is it a Qt issue?
It's *not* an issue. The width *can* be made constant, and
that's cool.
That's why I said "withdraw".

> Yes, but can be the icons enough descriptive?
That's what we're discussing currently.


> http://www.udel.edu/topics/e-mail/macosxmail/index.html
> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:
Mozilla_thunderbird_empty_screenshot.png
> Do you think these apps could look better without the
icons text?
No.

> > > > Give an example of a KDE app that should
show icons + text.
> > > Kontact for example. Some friends of mine use
Kmail and they thing that
> > > it's difficult to recognize the
"reply", "forward" and
"receinve mail".
> > > Are the icon bad? I don't think so, I agree
with your option number "1"
> > > below:
> > >
> > > "1. No matter how good our artists are,
and no matter for how long and
> > > how hard they try, some icons just cannot
*become* good enough to be
> > > useful in the absence of text."
> > Why should "forward" and
"receive mail" (called "check mail
in",
> > actually) be on the toolbar anyway?
> > - only secretaries forward often
> I don't think so.
Then the obvious question is, who else needs to?

> > - only people on very low bandwidth check mail in
manually
> I don't think so. Me and people I meet check mail
manually with band width.
> They receive it periodically, yes, but some times many
users press
> in "Receive mail".
Why do they do it?

> > > Anyway, in case of the text "Shared
files" is not self explanatory,
> > > after the user  visites that button he can
remember the text "Shared
> > > files" easier than remember an icon.
> > Agreed, but the gain in easiness is less than the
loss in
> > beauty.
> Agian look at this:
>   http://www.udel.edu/topics/e-mail/macosxmail/index.html
>
> The look problem of KDE is not because the text or not
text in the icons,
> the problems are:
>
> - By default the KDE apps show TOO MUCH icons in the
toolbar.
> - The text of the icons is TOO LONG (and worse in
i18n).
> - KDE apps show all their power to the user in the gui,
only a few KDE apps
> try to hide the advanced features just for advanced
users.
However, even if there were few icons, and with short
descriptions, the text 
makes it uglier.
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El Martes, 12 de Septiembre de 2006 20:20, Stefan Monov
escribió:
> > > Why should "forward" and
"receive mail" (called "check mail
in",
> > > actually) be on the toolbar anyway?
> > > - only secretaries forward often
> >
> > I don't think so.
>
> Then the obvious question is, who else needs to?

At work I must many times to forward or redirect a mail.
And many people like to forward "cool" mails to
their friends.



> > > - only people on very low bandwidth check
mail in manually
> >
> > I don't think so. Me and people I meet check mail
manually with band
> > width. They receive it periodically, yes, but some
times many users press
> > in "Receive mail".
>
> Why do they do it?

Examples:
- A user has registered himself in a page and need to check
the "confirm" 
mail.
- A user has bought a travel and need to print the ticked he
will receive 
attached in a mail.
- A user asks by mail to somebody about an important
problem, so he needs to 
check manually the inbox.


> > - By default the KDE apps show TOO MUCH icons in
the toolbar.
> > - The text of the icons is TOO LONG (and worse in
i18n).
> > - KDE apps show all their power to the user in the
gui, only a few KDE
> > apps try to hide the advanced features just for
advanced users.
>
> However, even if there were few icons, and with short
descriptions, the
> text makes it uglier.

Ok, so then answer again to this question:  ;)

  http://www.udel.edu/topics/e-mail/macosxmail/index.html
  http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Moz
illa_thunderbird_empty_screenshot.
  Do you think these apps could look better without the
icons text?



Regards.




-- 
Iñaki
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> At work I must many times to forward or redirect a
mail.
Good.
However, Oxygen's (work-in-progress) mail_get, mail_forward
and mail_reply are 
easily distinguishable (unlike Crystal SVG's). Compare:
http://websvn.kde
.org/trunk/playground/artwork/Oxygen/theme/svg/actions/mail_
get.svg?rev=546749
http://websvn
.kde.org/trunk/playground/artwork/Oxygen/theme/svg/actions/m
ail_forward.svg?rev=546749
http://websvn.k
de.org/trunk/playground/artwork/Oxygen/theme/svg/actions/mai
l_reply.svg?rev=546749
Do you agree?

> And many people like to forward "cool"
mails to their friends.
Most people do this relatively rarely, so it doesn't
justify being on the 
toolbar.

> > > > - only people on very low bandwidth
check mail in manually
> > > I don't think so. Me and people I meet check
mail manually with band
> > > width. They receive it periodically, yes, but
some times many users
> > > press in "Receive mail".
> > Why do they do it?
> Examples:
> - A user has registered himself in a page and need to
check the "confirm"
> mail.
> - A user has bought a travel and need to print the
ticked he will receive
> attached in a mail.
> - A user asks by mail to somebody about an important
problem, so he needs
> to check manually the inbox.
An alternative is to decrease the checking interval. What's
wrong with that?

> http://www.udel.edu/topics/e-mail/macosxmail/index.html
> Do you think it could look better without the icons
text?
No.
But that's only because Mac has the menubar outside the
window, which lifts 
some text overload from the window. Hence they can afford to
have icons with 
text and still avoid suffocating the user.
And before you say it, no, I'm not saying Mac-style
menubars should be made 
default in KDE... they aren't intuitive.

> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Moz
illa_thunderbird_empty_screenshot.
> Do you think it could look better without the icons
text?
Honestly yes.
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El Miércoles, 13 de Septiembre de 2006 19:22, Stefan Monov
escribió:
> > At work I must many times to forward or redirect a
mail.
>
> Good.
> However, Oxygen's (work-in-progress) mail_get,
mail_forward and mail_reply
> are easily distinguishable (unlike Crystal SVG's).
Compare:
> http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/playgroun
d/artwork/Oxygen/theme/svg/actions/mai
>l_get.svg?rev=546749
> http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/playgroun
d/artwork/Oxygen/theme/svg/actions/mai
>l_forward.svg?rev=546749
> http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/playgroun
d/artwork/Oxygen/theme/svg/actions/mai
>l_reply.svg?rev=546749
>Do you agree? 

Yes, they are very good icons!



> > Examples:
> > - A user has registered himself in a page and need
to check the "confirm"
> > mail.
> > - A user has bought a travel and need to print the
ticked he will receive
> > attached in a mail.
> > - A user asks by mail to somebody about an
important problem, so he needs
> > to check manually the inbox.
>
> An alternative is to decrease the checking interval.
What's wrong with
> that?

I can sure that many users know nothinc about the
possibility of automatic 
mail check interval. they don't know that this option
exists so they won't 
look for it in a small checkbos in
"Preferences".



> > http://www.udel.edu/topics/e-mail/macosxmail/index.html
> > Do you think it could look better without the
icons text?
>
> No.
> But that's only because Mac has the menubar outside
the window, which lifts
> some text overload from the window. Hence they can
afford to have icons
> with text and still avoid suffocating the user.
> And before you say it, no, I'm not saying Mac-style
menubars should be made
> default in KDE... they aren't intuitive.

I agree with you. I don't like the Mac menubars style, I
tried it in my KDE 
for 2 weeks and returned to the classic style.
About the height space of the menubar text, I've already
suggested the 
possibility of hiding the menu bar in a big button
"Menu" in the top-left 
corner, as I did in a Konqueror mockup: http://konqueror4.li
nuxdevel.net 
(thanks again for the domain)  ;)




Regards.



-- 
Iñaki
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On Wednesday 13 September 2006 21:20, Iñaki wrote:
> El Miércoles, 13 de Septiembre de 2006 19:22, Stefan
Monov escribió:
> > Oxygen's (work-in-progress) mail_get,
mail_forward and
> > mail_reply are easily distinguishable (unlike
Crystal SVG's).
[...]
> >Do you agree?
> Yes, they are very good icons!
If they are indeed good, then we don't need text under
them, do we?

> > > Examples:
> > > - A user has registered himself in a page and
need to check the
> > > "confirm" mail.
> > > - A user has bought a travel and need to
print the ticked he will
> > > receive attached in a mail.
> > > - A user asks by mail to somebody about an
important problem, so he
> > > needs to check manually the inbox.
> > An alternative is to decrease the checking
interval. What's wrong with
> > that?
> I can sure that many users know nothinc about the
possibility of automatic
> mail check interval. they don't know that this option
exists so they won't
> look for it in a small checkbos in
"Preferences".
Then the option needs to be made more visible. This, I
think, is doable.

> > > http://www.udel.edu/topics/e-mail/macosxmail/index.html
> > > Do you think it could look better without the
icons text?
> > No.
> > But that's only because Mac has the menubar
outside the window, which
> > lifts some text overload from the window. Hence
they can afford to have
> > icons with text and still avoid suffocating the
user.
> > And before you say it, no, I'm not saying
Mac-style menubars should be
> > made default in KDE... they aren't intuitive.
> I agree with you. I don't like the Mac menubars style,
I tried it in my KDE
> for 2 weeks and returned to the classic style.
Actually I use it exclusively. I don't think it's good for
newbies, though.

> About the height space of the menubar text, I've
already suggested the
> possibility of hiding the menu bar in a big button
"Menu" in the top-left
> corner, as I did in a Konqueror mockup: http://konqueror4.li
nuxdevel.net
*If* this goes into KDE, then text under icons will look
fine, yes. Start a 
new thread on that.
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On Wednesday 13 September 2006 19:22, Stefan Monov wrote:
> > At work I must many times to forward or redirect a
mail.
>
> Good.
> However, Oxygen's (work-in-progress) mail_get,
mail_forward and mail_reply
> are easily distinguishable (unlike Crystal SVG's).
Compare:
> http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/playgroun
d/artwork/Oxygen/theme/svg/actions/mai
>l_get.svg?rev=546749
> http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/playgroun
d/artwork/Oxygen/theme/svg/actions/mai
>l_forward.svg?rev=546749
> http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/playgroun
d/artwork/Oxygen/theme/svg/actions/mai
>l_reply.svg?rev=546749 Do you agree?
>
> > And many people like to forward "cool"
mails to their friends.
>
> Most people do this relatively rarely, so it doesn't
justify being on the
> toolbar.
>
> > > > > - only people on very low bandwidth
check mail in manually
> > > >
> > > > I don't think so. Me and people I meet
check mail manually with band
> > > > width. They receive it periodically,
yes, but some times many users
> > > > press in "Receive mail".
> > >
> > > Why do they do it?
> >
> > Examples:
> > - A user has registered himself in a page and need
to check the "confirm"
> > mail.
> > - A user has bought a travel and need to print the
ticked he will receive
> > attached in a mail.
> > - A user asks by mail to somebody about an
important problem, so he needs
> > to check manually the inbox.
>
> An alternative is to decrease the checking interval.
What's wrong with
> that?

Well, usually one wouldn't change the check interval to 30
seconds or 1 minute 
just because he /sometimes/ wants to retrieve messages
instantly. 
If you want instant fetching, like when receiving something
important e.g. by 
someone you are communicating real-time via IM or phone,
signing up somewhere 
etc. such a button makes perfect sense. Another case where
forced checks make 
sense is in mobile use, when one just wants to check for new
mails and do 
nothing else, turn on notebook, check mail, shutdown.

Checking for mail is a "key action" in a mail
reader, so I would think thrice 
before removing it from the taskbar just because you guess
interval settings 
are widely used.

Also, you make a lot of bold claims what people do how
often, I wonder if that 
is backed up by any data or just guessing.

Frank
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> > An alternative is to decrease the checking
interval. What's wrong with
> > that?
> Well, usually one wouldn't change the check interval
to 30 seconds or 1
> minute just because he /sometimes/ wants to retrieve
messages instantly.
Yes, one wouldn't *change* it. But they can set it to 1
minute one day and 
forget about it. Decreasing the interval doesn't hurt
anything but bandwidth, 
while increasing the interval hurts (by making the
"get mail" toolbutton 
necessary by default).

> Another case where forced
> checks make sense is in mobile use, when one just wants
to check for new
> mails and do nothing else, turn on notebook, check
mail, shutdown.
KMail has a "Check on startup" option.

> Also, you make a lot of bold claims what people do how
often, I wonder if
> that is backed up by any data or just guessing.
Guessing, and hoping someone will correct me with reliable
statistics.
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On Thursday 14 September 2006 13:07, Stefan Monov wrote:
> > Also, you make a lot of bold claims what people do
how often, I wonder if
> > that is backed up by any data or just guessing.

Just one more bold claim, if that is of any help for anyone:
my stupid free 
e-mail provider locks pop access if I check mail more often
than once per 15 
minutes if no new mail is present -- so my auto-check
interval will remain 
high, while in case I know some kind of confirmation mail
must have come in, 
I do use the button discussed here.

Apart from that, I don't believe anybody new to KMail or
e-mail at all could 
understand why there shouldn't be a button you can simply
click to download 
your e-mail. It's just the most basic function of an e-mail
software.

Just my 2c

Daniel
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On Thursday 14 September 2006 13:07, Stefan Monov wrote:
> > Also, you make a lot of bold claims what people do
how often, I wonder if
> > that is backed up by any data or just guessing.

Just one more bold claim, if that is of any help for anyone:
my stupid free 
e-mail provider locks pop access if I check mail more often
than once per 15 
minutes if no new mail is present -- so my auto-check
interval will remain 
high, while in case I know some kind of confirmation mail
must have come in, 
I do use the button discussed here.

Apart from that, I don't believe anybody new to KMail or
e-mail at all could 
understand why there shouldn't be a button you can simply
click to download 
your e-mail. It's just the most basic function of an e-mail
software.

Just my 2c

Daniel
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El Miércoles, 13 de Septiembre de 2006 19:22, Stefan Monov
escribió:
> > Examples:
> > - A user has registered himself in a page and need
to check the "confirm"
> > mail.
> > - A user has bought a travel and need to print the
ticked he will receive
> > attached in a mail.
> > - A user asks by mail to somebody about an
important problem, so he needs
> > to check manually the inbox.
>
> An alternative is to decrease the checking interval.
What's wrong with
> that?


"Check mail" is just one icon, and it's
probably one of the most obvious icons 
in a mail client toolbar. Why you want to hide it?

It's exactly like if you'd propose to hide the
"Save" button in Kword because 
the user can increase the automatic save interval. ¿?¿


Regards.


-- 
Iñaki
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