Sorry to post something controversial to the list.

I think that new people should know what they are getting
into.

And to say that the greatest improvement that KDE-Quality
can make in 
KDE is to somehow change the attitude of the core
developers.

The complete thread is on KDE-Artists.  You can try to
figure out how 
what started as my posting something that I found amusing --
it even has 
a funny title -- degenerated into personal insults from TR
and AJS.

This is not the attitude of the leadership of a project that
I want to 
work for.

Why does a project ask for more participants and then abuse
those the 
show up when they try to help?

-- 
JRT

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [kde-artists] NEWS flash from GNOME.
:-D]
Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:12:36 -0700
From: James Richard Tyrer <tyrerjacm.org>
To: JRT <jrt256earthlink.net>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [kde-artists] NEWS flash from GNOME. :-D
Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 23:10:19 -0700
From: James Richard Tyrer <tyrerjacm.org>
To: Aaron J. Seigo <aseigokde.org>
CC: kde-artistskde.org
References: <465B94E4.4030901acm.org>
<200705301528.52754.torsten.rahncredativ.de>	<465E307F.7020105acm.org>
<200705302130.45923.aseigokde.org>

Please note that this is not 'trolling', it is 'ranting' and
I am only
doing this because AJS asked for it, not to mention the fact
that he
personally insulted me which I would guess is a violation of
the list
posting policy.  {This posting contains sarcasm}

Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> On Wednesday 30 May 2007, James Richard Tyrer wrote:

>> My opinion remains that it was a bad idea to use
CrystalSVG icons 
>> in a way that forces their use on other DeskTops.
> 
> your opinion is, i am sure, well meant. it's also
amazingly, 
> brilliantly wrong. you have a terrific ability for
doing this.

I'm not the only person that doesn't like CrystalSVG style
icons.

> perhaps you could go help the competition. we'd
appreciate that 
> immensely.

The competition's desktop GNOME sucks.  But, this doesn't
mean that KDE
doesn't make mistakes.  It doesn't mean that if  gnome fixes
bugs and
that KDE doesn't that users won't switch.

Is KDE a monolithic authoritarian project where every one
that doesn't
parrot the party line is thrown out?  Or is this a place
founded on
freedom where free speech is allowed?

I thought that this was Free Software not a mini-USSR!

>> The fact remains that there is a serious bug in the
KDE icon search
>>  code.
> 
> this not a fact, it's just you being ironically
humourous, or 
> whatever you wish to call it, once again.

I'm sure that you know the quote:

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on questions of
facts but
everyone isn't entitled to their own facts on questions of
fact.

This is a question of fact and it either is correct or it
isn't.  No
matter how many times you say that there is no bug, won't
make it go
away.  I hope that someday you will reduce your arrogance
sufficiently to
realize that this is true.

First demonstration case:

Please select as your icon theme: KDEClassic.  Select as
your toolbar
icon size 22x22.  Now notice that CrystalSVG icons show up
in some
cases.  Now the XDG spec at FreeDesktop.org is VERY CLEAR
that this
isn't supposed to happen.

Second demonstration case:

Install Oxygen as KDE Artists official said that new icons
should be
installed.  That is, install an SVG and 16x16 & 22x22
PNGs.  Select
Oxygen as you theme and 32x32 as the default size.  Hmmmm!
The DeskTop
and file manager icons aren't Oxygen.  Again, the spec is
VERY CLEAR.
Now reduce the default icon size to 22x22 and -- presto --
Oxygen icons.

 From the spec:

http://standards.freedesktop.org/ico
n-theme-spec/icon-theme-spec-latest.html

"Even if there may be an icon with a size closer to the
correct one in
an inherited theme, we don't want to use it. Doing so may
generate an
inconsistant [sic] change in an icon when you change icon
sizes (e.g.
zoom in)."

Now who is the idiot.  The bug is real.  KDE code does not
follow the
spec.  Stop with your useless statements that this isn't
true -- there
isn't a bug and just fix it.

> please, just go away.

Well that answers one question, if you disagree with the
core
developers, they do personally insult you and ask you to
leave.  Do you
think that just because this is the only time I can document
it on a
public list that this is a secret.  Don't you think that
other
developers that have been abused by the arrogant core
developers have
contacted me?

YES, Of course they have!  Their advice, it is hopeless,
just leave.

TIA
-- 
JRT


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On Thursday 31 May 2007, JRT wrote:
| Sorry to post something controversial to the list.
|
| I think that new people should know what they are getting
into.

I snipped everything out as it doesn't need to be repeated.
Are you a "new 
person" by chance? I am, 6 months maybe working with
the KDE community, so I 
am about as new as one could get. I have never had one
problem yet, and I 
have disagreed with a core developer, and have a couple of
time, and never 
once I have ever been disrespected or treated unfairly. The
KDE community 
actually entrusted me with stuff and welcomed me with open
arms in a way.

I just wanted to say it isn't fair that you think "new
people" should know 
what they are getting into from one incident. Plus I am not
100% sure this 
was the correct list to send this to, but then again I am
new.

-- 
Richard A. Johnson
nixternalubuntu.com
GPG Key: 0x2E2C0124

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On Thursday 31 May 2007 2:22:48 am JRT wrote:

> Why does a project ask for more participants and then
abuse those the
> show up when they try to help?

i'm purely a lurker contemplating finding a place to get
involved with kde.  i 
went to the archives and read the whole thread.  your
intentions may 
be 'arguable' at best, but i definitely find your methods
lacking.

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> -------- Original Message --------
> From: James Richard Tyrer <tyrerjacm.org>
>  From the spec:
>
> http://standards.freedesktop.org/ico
n-theme-spec/icon-theme-spec-latest.html
>
> "Even if there may be an icon with a size closer
to the correct one in
> an inherited theme, we don't want to use it. Doing so
may generate an
> inconsistant [sic] change in an icon when you change
icon sizes (e.g.
> zoom in)."

Please, lets follow the spec for KDE 4.0.  I don't know how
long the spec has 
been around, but it's too late to fiddle with 3.5.  KDE 4.0
should "play 
nice" and follow the freedesktop.org standard where
they apply.

I'd have no objection to a option (hidden or otherwise) to
restore the old 
behavior ala:

When multiple themes provide icon(s) for a particular role:
(*) Minimize inconsistent style.
( ) Minimize scaling.

[+ other options as desired.]

-- 
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.                     ,= ,-_-. =. 
bss03volumehost.net                      ((_/)o o(_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy           `-'(. .)`-' 
http://iguanasuicide.org/                      _/     

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Op donderdag 31 mei 2007, schreef JRT:

Hi,

> Sorry to post something controversial to the list.
>
> I think that new people should know what they are
getting into.
>
> And to say that the greatest improvement that
KDE-Quality can make in
> KDE is to somehow change the attitude of the core
developers.
>
> The complete thread is on KDE-Artists.  You can try to
figure out how
> what started as my posting something that I found
amusing -- it even has
> a funny title -- degenerated into personal insults from
TR and AJS.
>
> This is not the attitude of the leadership of a project
that I want to
> work for.
>
> Why does a project ask for more participants and then
abuse those the
> show up when they try to help?

However I really disagree with the tone of some messages in
that particular 
thread, I don't think it's fair to say something like that
about all (core) 
developers. This is an unfortunate incident, not a common
practice. 
Therefore, your statements here pissed me off for a bit
("I think that new 
people should know what they are getting into.").

Kind regards,

-- 
Bram Schoenmakers
KDE Netherlands (www.kde.nl)

Test the new features for KDE PIM
http://techbase.kde.org/Installing_the_KDE_P
IM_3.5.5+_feature_branch

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Richard A. Johnson wrote:
> On Thursday 31 May 2007, JRT wrote: | Sorry to post
something 
> controversial to the list. | | I think that new people
should know 
> what they are getting into.
> 
> I snipped everything out as it doesn't need to be
repeated.

That is fine, no reason to waste bandwidth.

> Are you a "new person" by chance? I am, 6
months maybe working with 
> the KDE community, so I am about as new as one could
get.

I have recently returned after taking several months off due
to illness.

> I have never had one problem yet, and I have disagreed
with a core 
> developer, and have a couple of time, and never once I
have ever been
>  disrespected or treated unfairly. The KDE community
actually 
> entrusted me with stuff and welcomed me with open arms
in a way.

That is good to hear.  Perhaps some people just hate me.
:-D

> I just wanted to say it isn't fair that you think
"new people" should
>  know what they are getting into from one incident.
Plus I am not
> 100% sure this was the correct list to send this to,
but then again I
> am new.

Perhaps, now that I have calmed down a bit, it is best to
just say that 
this is a word to to the wise -- be forewarned that if you
disagree with 
some of the core developers that their reaction may be to
take it 
personally.

-- 
JRT
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tooth wrote:
> On Thursday 31 May 2007 2:22:48 am JRT wrote:
> 
>> Why does a project ask for more participants and
then abuse those the
>> show up when they try to help?
> 
> i'm purely a lurker contemplating finding a place to
get involved with kde.  i 
> went to the archives and read the whole thread.  your
intentions may 
> be 'arguable' at best, but i definitely find your
methods lacking.

I argue about things.  I try to avoid making it personal. 
The problem 
is that some core developers don't understand about not
making it personal.

My intentions are to improve things.  The icon situation is
a mess that 
I won't go into in detail.  All I want to do is fix it so
that it is 
rational.

-- 
JRT
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Bram Schoenmakers wrote:
> Op donderdag 31 mei 2007, schreef JRT:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> Sorry to post something controversial to the list.
>>
>> I think that new people should know what they are
getting into.
>>
>> And to say that the greatest improvement that
KDE-Quality can make in
>> KDE is to somehow change the attitude of the core
developers.
>>
>> The complete thread is on KDE-Artists.  You can try
to figure out how
>> what started as my posting something that I found
amusing -- it even has
>> a funny title -- degenerated into personal insults
from TR and AJS.
>>
>> This is not the attitude of the leadership of a
project that I want to
>> work for.
>>
>> Why does a project ask for more participants and
then abuse those the
>> show up when they try to help?
> 
> However I really disagree with the tone of some
messages in that particular 
> thread, I don't think it's fair to say something like
that about all (core) 
> developers. This is an unfortunate incident, not a
common practice. 
> Therefore, your statements here pissed me off for a bit
("I think that new 
> people should know what they are getting into.").

I assure you that this isn't an isolated incident.  But
then, how many 
times do you need to be called an idiot and asked to leave
before you 
get rather upset about the matter?

-- 
JRT
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Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> From: James Richard Tyrer <tyrerjacm.org>
>>  From the spec:
>>
>> http://standards.freedesktop.org/ico
n-theme-spec/icon-theme-spec-latest.html
>>
>> "Even if there may be an icon with a size
closer to the correct one in
>> an inherited theme, we don't want to use it. Doing
so may generate an
>> inconsistant [sic] change in an icon when you
change icon sizes (e.g.
>> zoom in)."
> 
> Please, lets follow the spec for KDE 4.0.  I don't know
how long the spec has 
> been around, but it's too late to fiddle with 3.5.  

It is probably the same piece of code so it would be easier
to fix in 
the stable release first.

> KDE 4.0 should "play 
> nice" and follow the freedesktop.org standard
where they apply.
> 
> I'd have no objection to a option (hidden or otherwise)
to restore the old 
> behavior ala:
> 
> When multiple themes provide icon(s) for a particular
role:
> (*) Minimize inconsistent style.
> ( ) Minimize scaling.

To make a minor point.  Minimize Scaling isn't the best idea
since 
48x48s tend to make better 22x22s.
> 
> [+ other options as desired.]

I really think that the relevant people don't understand
that there 
really is an error in the code so they don't fix it.  But,
as you say, 
if they want the incorrect behavior as an option, that is no
problem 
with me either.  I just want for it to work correctly.  My
current icon 
system works correctly with "USRHiColor (my theme, its
on KDElook) -> 
KDEClassic -> HiColor -> Gnome -> CrystalSVG"
but it is a kludge.  I 
would like to be able to set that in the ControlCenter and
have it work 
that way.

-- 
JRT
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On Thursday 31 May 2007, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > From: James Richard Tyrer <tyrerjacm.org>
> >  From the spec:
> >
> > http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-t
heme-spec/icon-theme-spec-latest.h
> >tml
> >
> > "Even if there may be an icon with a size
closer to the correct one in
> > an inherited theme, we don't want to use it. Doing
so may generate an
> > inconsistant [sic] change in an icon when you
change icon sizes (e.g.
> > zoom in)."
>
> Please, lets follow the spec for KDE 4.0. 

actually, we follow the icon spec closer in 4.0 that we did
in 3.x, e.g. we've 
adapted to the naming conventions. if you follow the steps
james lays out 
here (select oxygen, put 32px as the default, open the file
manager) you will 
see oxygen icons contrary to what he's saying here. James
has constructed a 
problem that doesn't exist in the real world and is trying
with great effort 
and repeated attempts to pass it off as the end of the icon
world. he's also 
taken the conversation completely out of context, which was
originally about 
how "horrible" it was that GNOME is shipping icons
for KDE applications. this 
is not the first time (far from it) that he's raised this
non-issue under 
various guises, nor is it the first time the artists have
tried to explain to 
him why things are the way they are.

for those who were needlessly and ungraciously subjected to
this thread, let 
me just provide the context that this is his modus operandi
and after a few 
years of dealing with his needlessly argumentative and
contentious behaviour, 
i'm tired of it.

posting this to a list where it is obviously off-topic is
just more of the 
same from James and why i responded as bluntly as i did to
him in the first 
place. i apologize to everyone whose inbox was needlessly
bloated by his 
innapropriate cross-posting.

for those who *are* new here: kde does greet people with
open arms and go to 
great lengths to welcome all equally, but that doesn't mean
the project is 
open for or tollerates abuse. the fact that James has
consistently engaged in 
this behaviour for years before it getting to this point
says a lot. if 
anything, we're too understanding and err on the side
hospitality.

and i'm not sure what any of this has to do with
kde-quality. =/

-- 
Aaron J. Seigo
humru othro a kohnu se
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA  EE75 D6B7 2EB1
A7F1 DB43

Full time KDE developer sponsored by Trolltech (http://www.trolltech.com
)

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