cs # cs is not a typo

Well, it might not be a typo but:

bash: cs: command not found

Perhaps a little more explanation and a little less
obscurity would be 
more helpful for those that think that the method described
is a bit 
complicated.

-- 
JRT
 
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On Monday, June 04, 2007 1:55 am James Richard Tyrer wrote:
> Well, it might not be a typo but:
>
> bash: cs: command not found
>
> Perhaps a little more explanation and a little less
obscurity would be
> more helpful for those that think that the method
described is a bit
> complicated.

Click on "cs is not a typo" ;)

-- 
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

 
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On Monday 4 June 2007 07:55:57 James Richard Tyrer wrote:
> Well, it might not be a typo but:
>
> bash: cs: command not found
>
> Perhaps a little more explanation and a little less
obscurity would be
> more helpful for those that think that the method
described is a bit
> complicated.

Did you follow the tutorial from the start? If so, please
feel free to improve 
this page as it is a wiki. Just click on any [edit] key word
and 
change/improve the text.
We did our best with this doc and lots of people succeeded
in building KDE4. 
However we chose a wiki so that anyone can improve it, based
on his 
experiment.

Thanks in advance,

Anne-Marie

 
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Kelly wrote:
> On Monday, June 04, 2007 1:55 am James Richard Tyrer
wrote:
>> Well, it might not be a typo but:
>>
>> bash: cs: command not found
>>
>> Perhaps a little more explanation and a little less
obscurity would be
>> more helpful for those that think that the method
described is a bit
>> complicated.
> 
> Click on "cs is not a typo" ;)
> 
Yes, I did that and that I found a canned script.

But, first I read the notice:

Make sure you did set up your environment correctly as
described above. 
This is necessary for the cs and cb functions to work.

Well, I can set up an environment, so what do I need to
worry about 
that.  Doesn't say anything about installing scripts.  Which

incidentally, I would install as scripts if I wanted to use
them.

Seriously, perhaps I should start by asking what a
"Tutorial" is.  It is 
supposed to teach someone how to do something.  This isn't a
tutorial 
because it doesn't teach anything except how to follow the
canned 
instructions -- the user learns nothing about how to use
cMake.

Perhaps someone could write a real tutorial to actually
teach people how 
to do this.  The way I would do this is to write all the
instructions 
out in full.  You might think that this would make it
difficult, but 
remember, we have copy & paste!   This way
the user actually learns 
what they are doing and can make changes as needed to fit
their system.

This would be very helpful to me since I know how to use
cMake and how 
to set environment variables.  But, I do need some of the
other 
information.  I can't really follow the instruction because
I don't want 
to install KDE-4 in a private user directory.  This isn't
really a good 
idea because it might not work the same as if it were
installed 
globally.  This has always worked fine previously.  You just
need a user 
account and a script to start it.

-- 
JRT
 
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On Monday 04 June 2007, James Richard Tyrer wrote:
> Well, it might not be a typo but:
>
> bash: cs: command not found
>
> Perhaps a little more explanation and a little less
obscurity would be
> more helpful for those that think that the method
described is a bit
> complicated.

It seems to be confusing again and again.
Maybe it is indeed a good idea to remove cs, cb and even
cmakekde and 
replace it by longer but more readable instructions ;)

Dominik
 
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Hello,

There is a very good tutorial called "Mastering
CMake". You can buy it  
at http:
//www.kitware.com/products/cmakebook.html. Amazon.com is
a bit  
cheaper.

-- 
Pau Garcia i Quiles
http://www.elpauer.org
(Due to the amount of work, I usually need 10 days to
answer)



Quoting James Richard Tyrer <tyrerjacm.org>:

> Kelly wrote:
>> On Monday, June 04, 2007 1:55 am James Richard
Tyrer wrote:
>>> Well, it might not be a typo but:
>>>
>>> bash: cs: command not found
>>>
>>> Perhaps a little more explanation and a little
less obscurity would be
>>> more helpful for those that think that the
method described is a bit
>>> complicated.
>>
>> Click on "cs is not a typo" ;)
>>
> Yes, I did that and that I found a canned script.
>
> But, first I read the notice:
>
> Make sure you did set up your environment correctly as
described above.
> This is necessary for the cs and cb functions to work.
>
> Well, I can set up an environment, so what do I need to
worry about
> that.  Doesn't say anything about installing scripts. 
Which
> incidentally, I would install as scripts if I wanted to
use them.
>
> Seriously, perhaps I should start by asking what a
"Tutorial" is.  It is
> supposed to teach someone how to do something.  This
isn't a tutorial
> because it doesn't teach anything except how to follow
the canned
> instructions -- the user learns nothing about how to
use cMake.
>
> Perhaps someone could write a real tutorial to actually
teach people how
> to do this.  The way I would do this is to write all
the instructions
> out in full.  You might think that this would make it
difficult, but
> remember, we have copy & paste!   This way
the user actually learns
> what they are doing and can make changes as needed to
fit their system.
>
> This would be very helpful to me since I know how to
use cMake and how
> to set environment variables.  But, I do need some of
the other
> information.  I can't really follow the instruction
because I don't want
> to install KDE-4 in a private user directory.  This
isn't really a good
> idea because it might not work the same as if it were
installed
> globally.  This has always worked fine previously.  You
just need a user
> account and a script to start it.
>
> --
> JRT
>
>>> Visit 
http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-devel#unsub to 
 
>>> unsubscribe <<
>


 
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On Monday 04 June 2007, Dominik Haumann wrote:
> It seems to be confusing again and again.
> Maybe it is indeed a good idea to remove cs, cb and
even cmakekde and
> replace it by longer but more readable instructions ;)

yes, it seems we've overestimated the utility of saving time
for most people 
(the "saving time with scripts" tutorial is still
awesome though =) and 
underestimated how low the bar needs to be to have
acceptable reach.

-- 
Aaron J. Seigo
humru othro a kohnu se
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA  EE75 D6B7 2EB1
A7F1 DB43

Full time KDE developer sponsored by Trolltech (http://www.trolltech.com
)

 
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On Monday 4 June 2007 09:07:55 James Richard Tyrer wrote:
> Kelly wrote:
> > On Monday, June 04, 2007 1:55 am James Richard
Tyrer wrote:
> >> Well, it might not be a typo but:
> >>
> >> bash: cs: command not found
> >>
> >> Perhaps a little more explanation and a little
less obscurity would be
> >> more helpful for those that think that the
method described is a bit
> >> complicated.
> >
> > Click on "cs is not a typo" ;)
>
> Yes, I did that and that I found a canned script.
>
> But, first I read the notice:
>
> Make sure you did set up your environment correctly as
described above.
> This is necessary for the cs and cb functions to work.
>
> Well, I can set up an environment, so what do I need to
worry about
> that.  Doesn't say anything about installing scripts. 
Which
> incidentally, I would install as scripts if I wanted to
use them.
>
> Seriously, perhaps I should start by asking what a
"Tutorial" is.  It is
> supposed to teach someone how to do something.  This
isn't a tutorial
> because it doesn't teach anything except how to follow
the canned
> instructions -- the user learns nothing about how to
use cMake.
>
> Perhaps someone could write a real tutorial to actually
teach people how
> to do this.  The way I would do this is to write all
the instructions
> out in full.  
Please just DO it!!!
Why do you rely on "someone"?
You don't like that doc which has been the best way for
avoiding problems, 
then either you do it quietly your way or you write another
doc.

Several KDE developers that I know don't use a second user.
But it is not the 
easiest way to go, it actually needs more scripts than
mentioned on this doc. 
The developers who do it your way never complained about
that doc because 
this is the way to go right now for new comers in KDE4.
There was no need 
before you came for another doc. 

> You might think that this would make it difficult, but

> remember, we have copy & paste!   This way
the user actually learns
> what they are doing and can make changes as needed to
fit their system.
>
> This would be very helpful to me since I know how to
use cMake and how
> to set environment variables.  But, I do need some of
the other
> information.  I can't really follow the instruction
because I don't want
> to install KDE-4 in a private user directory.  This
isn't really a good
> idea because it might not work the same as if it were
installed
> globally.  This has always worked fine previously.  You
just need a user
> account and a script to start it.

People who actually build KDE4 by following this doc don't
find it confusing. 
I meet lots of newcomers on IRC and this cs issue was never
risen.

Frankly I/we spent hours on that tutorial and having such
negative comments is 
a bit discouraging.
This is a wiki and everyone is free to improve this doc.
Just replicate the page and redo it without scripts. 

This is a TECHNICAL tutorial, building KDE4 from sources is
not like 
installing rpms from your distro. Using some aliases and a
few simple bash 
scripts in a technical tutorial is totally natural.
No, I am not a bash expert but if someone is not able to
follow this page, 
then there's no need pretending he'll be able to do anything
with KDE4 in its 
current state. 

Sorry to jump on this but I invested a great lot of time
with other people to 
ensure that KDE4 can be built and used for development the
easiest way. This 
doc achieves it. Several new great contributors started
easily with this doc.

Anne-Marie


 
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Anne-Marie Mahfouf wrote:
> On Monday 4 June 2007 07:55:57 James Richard Tyrer
wrote:
>> Well, it might not be a typo but:
>> 
>> bash: cs: command not found
>> 
>> Perhaps a little more explanation and a little less
obscurity would
>>  be more helpful for those that think that the
method described is
>> a bit complicated.
> 
> Did you follow the tutorial from the start?

No, as I said, I didn't follow it because I wanted to
install KDE 4
Branch as I have installed KDE TRUNK, Beta, and rcs many
times before.

> If so, please feel free to improve this page as it is a
wiki. Just 
> click on any [edit] key word and change/improve the
text.

I can't improve on those instruction because I would take a
different 
approach, but I would be willing to write a tutorial/HOW TO,
if I 
succeed in installing KDE 4.

> We did our best with this doc and lots of people
succeeded in 
> building KDE4. However we chose a wiki so that anyone
can improve it,
>  based on his experiment.

Yes, I presume that many people succeed in using it.  But it
is like 
that script that was supposed to install KDE-3.x.  It
probably worked 
for may users, but for those that had problems, they really
didn't know 
what was happening so it was very difficult to help them.

-- 
JRT


 
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On 04.06.07 00:07:55, James Richard Tyrer wrote:
> I can't really follow the instruction because I don't
want to install
> KDE-4 in a private user directory.  This isn't really a
good idea
> because it might not work the same as if it were
installed globally.
> This has always worked fine previously.  You just need
a user account
> and a script to start it.

Why exactly is it a bad idea to install KDE4 in a users
$HOME dir?
(Except that running a full KDE4 session is just a bit
trickier to
setup). I'm doing that since about 6 months and its working
pretty fine.

Andreas

-- 
Never be led astray onto the path of virtue.
 
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On 6/4/07, Andreas Pakulat <apakugmx.de> wrote:
> On 04.06.07 00:07:55, James Richard Tyrer wrote:
> > I can't really follow the instruction because I
don't want to install
> > KDE-4 in a private user directory.  This isn't
really a good idea
> > because it might not work the same as if it were
installed globally.
> > This has always worked fine previously.  You just
need a user account
> > and a script to start it.
>
> Why exactly is it a bad idea to install KDE4 in a users
$HOME dir?
> (Except that running a full KDE4 session is just a bit
trickier to
> setup). I'm doing that since about 6 months and its
working pretty fine.

I guess it's just another way to do it. I prefer to have KDE
4 as a
seperate user, mostly because it feels more seperate 

> Andreas
>
> --
> Never be led astray onto the path of virtue.
 
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On Monday 4 June 2007 9:15, James Richard Tyrer wrote:
> Anne-Marie Mahfouf wrote:
>> People who actually build KDE4 by following this
doc don't find it
>> confusing.
>> I meet lots of newcomers on IRC and this cs issue
was never risen.
>>
>> Frankly I/we spent hours on that tutorial and
having such negative
>> comments is
>> a bit discouraging.
>
> This was not a complaint, it was a suggestion. 
Feedback is a valuable
> thing if you are willing to accept.  I thought that my
point was clear,
> that those instructions are not really a tutorial and
that they are not
> very useful to someone that isn't going to follow them
exactly.
>
>> This is a wiki and everyone is free to improve this
doc.
>> Just replicate the page and redo it without
scripts.
>>
>> This is a TECHNICAL tutorial, building KDE4 from
sources is not like
>> installing rpms from your distro. Using some
aliases and a few simple
>> bash
>> scripts in a technical tutorial is totally
natural.
>> No, I am not a bash expert but if someone is not
able to follow this
>> page,
>> then there's no need pretending he'll be able to do
anything with KDE4
>> in its
>> current state.
>
> I actually believe that it would be easier to follow an
actual tutorial
> than to follow these canned instructions.
>
>> Sorry to jump on this but I invested a great lot of
time with other
>> people to
>> ensure that KDE4 can be built and used for
development the easiest way.
>> This
>> doc achieves it. Several new great contributors
started easily with this
>> doc.
>
> Please read the LFS instructions to see what I mean:
>
> http
://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/stable/
>
> When users install LFS following these instructions,
they actually learn
> what they are doing.

It doesn't really gain anything by dwelling on the fact that
it's called a
tutorial. If it doesn't fit your idea of a tutorial, just
accept that it
isn't a tutorial as you think of it, and consider it as a
list of
instructions. Remember, nobody is paid to write these
things, so if it
doesn't fit your needs because its aim is different from
yours - the
answer, like it or lump it, is write something yourself.

-- 
David Jarvie.
KAlarm author & maintainer.
http://www.astrojar
.org.uk/kalarm

 
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James Richard Tyrer wrote:

Well, it appears that somewhere in this thread that I have
used American 
slang.  Sorry about that.  I know better having suffered
through trying 
to learn German in college.

The word 'canned' is American slang for 'Transcribed'.  In
this context, 
it means exactly the same thing.  I hope that will clear it
up for 
anyone that thinks that I was disparaging the instructions
as something 
related to preserved food. 

-- 
JRT
 
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On 04.06.07 06:01:33, James Richard Tyrer wrote:
> Jos Poortvliet wrote:
> > On 6/4/07, Andreas Pakulat <apakugmx.de> wrote:
> >> On 04.06.07 00:07:55, James Richard Tyrer
wrote:
> >>> I can't really follow the instruction
because I don't want to install
> >>> KDE-4 in a private user directory.  This
isn't really a good idea
> >>> because it might not work the same as if
it were installed globally.
> >>> This has always worked fine previously. 
You just need a user account
> >>> and a script to start it.
> >> Why exactly is it a bad idea to install KDE4
in a users $HOME dir?
> >> (Except that running a full KDE4 session is
just a bit trickier to
> >> setup). I'm doing that since about 6 months
and its working pretty fine.
> > 
> > I guess it's just another way to do it. I prefer
to have KDE 4 as a
> > seperate user, mostly because it feels more
seperate 
> > 
> You should run the desktop as a separate user account
to avoid having 
> issues with configuration files.

Thats easily avoidable by setting KDEHOME properly (and a
few other
variables) and its not different from running a single app.

> However, installing in that account's home directory
could possibly
> produce or hide bugs, so it isn't the best way to test
new software.

What kind of bugs or problems are you thinking of? (I'm
seriously
interested in learning what difference it could make where
KDE4 is
installed to) The only think I could think of would be
access-right-issues, i.e. a file that is installed with
user-read-write
access only. Are there other things?

Andreas

-- 
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On 04.06.07 07:48:26, James Richard Tyrer wrote:
> Andreas Pakulat wrote:
> > On 04.06.07 06:01:33, James Richard Tyrer wrote:
> >> Jos Poortvliet wrote:
> >>> On 6/4/07, Andreas Pakulat <apakugmx.de> wrote:
> >>>> On 04.06.07 00:07:55, James Richard
Tyrer wrote:
> >>>>> I can't really follow the
instruction because I don't want to install
> >>>>> KDE-4 in a private user directory.
 This isn't really a good idea
> >>>>> because it might not work the same
as if it were installed globally.
> >>>>> This has always worked fine
previously.  You just need a user account
> >>>>> and a script to start it.
> >>>> Why exactly is it a bad idea to
install KDE4 in a users $HOME dir?
> >>>> (Except that running a full KDE4
session is just a bit trickier to
> >>>> setup). I'm doing that since about 6
months and its working pretty fine.
> >>> I guess it's just another way to do it. I
prefer to have KDE 4 as a
> >>> seperate user, mostly because it feels
more seperate 
> >>>
> >> You should run the desktop as a separate user
account to avoid having 
> >> issues with configuration files.
> > 
> > Thats easily avoidable by setting KDEHOME properly
(and a few other
> > variables) and its not different from running a
single app.
> 
> Yes, you can do that, but it is easier to simply log in
to the test 
> account and the: ".bash_profile" will set the
needed environment 
> variables for you.  That way you won't accidentally
make toast of your 
> $HOME directory -- or do things like that only happen
to me?

No actually, at some time my setkde4env script didn't set
KDEHOME
properly and I had my kdevelop settings toasted, luckily
that file
doesn't change too much and my backup was not that outdated.


Also I'm using a simple script here to run kde4 apps which
just does

. envkde4
$

where envkde4 exports the needed variables.

> >> However, installing in that account's home
directory could possibly
> >> produce or hide bugs, so it isn't the best way
to test new software.
> > 
> > What kind of bugs or problems are you thinking of?
(I'm seriously
> > interested in learning what difference it could
make where KDE4 is
> > installed to) The only think I could think of
would be
> > access-right-issues, i.e. a file that is installed
with user-read-write
> > access only. Are there other things?
> 
> It shouldn't make any difference, but this is Alpha
software and by 
> definition, bugs are things that nobody expected to
happen.  This is 
> basically the instinct of a 59 year old CS/EE major.

Hehe, I just found one, see my post to k-c-d (which is
actually
inapropriate there as I just realised, kde-buildsystem
would've been
better). Obviously one can't install KDE4 modules into
different
prefixes due to a cmake bug.

> From time to time, 
> you run into software that won't build if you install
it in an odd 
> location and/or refuses to find libraries installed in
an odd place (yes 
> sometimes even if you tell it where to look) -- these
are bugs, but they 
> only occur if you don't install with the default
prefix.

Well, $HOME/foobar isn't quite the "default"
prefix, that would be
/usr/local. But I do understand what you mean.

> I am installing Qt-4 in: /usr/local/Trolltech/Qt-4/
just in case I run 
> into some software that can't tell the two Qts apart by
their numbers. 
> And, I will install all KDE-4 stuff in:
/usr/local/KDE-4/ but all the 
> other new stuff might as well be installed in the usual
place in /usr/ 
> or /usr/local/ since there is no potential for
conflicts.

I'm having qt-copy in $HOME/qt-copy, I've got Qt4.2 in /usr
(by
packages) and Qt3 also. KDE4 is currently installed in
$HOME/kde4
completely. For testing a Find-cmake script I will install
one module
into $HOME/kdevplatform as soon as cmake is fixed to support
that.

Andreas

-- 
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On Monday 04 June 2007, James Richard Tyrer wrote:
> Yes, you can do that, but it is easier to simply log in
to the test
> account and the: ".bash_profile" will set the
needed environment
> variables for you.  That way you won't accidentally
make toast of your
> $HOME directory -- or do things like that only happen
to me?

PS1="KDE4: $PS1"

Gives you a nice hint inside a terminal.
Not that it solves any technical problem. But it feels good


-- 
Jonas Widarsson
MSN: jonaswidarsson.com ICQ: 72016688 
 
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On Monday 04 June 2007 09:10:53 Dominik Haumann wrote:
> On Monday 04 June 2007, James Richard Tyrer wrote:
> > Well, it might not be a typo but:
> >
> > bash: cs: command not found
> >
> > Perhaps a little more explanation and a little
less obscurity would be
> > more helpful for those that think that the method
described is a bit
> > complicated.
>
> It seems to be confusing again and again.
> Maybe it is indeed a good idea to remove cs, cb and
even cmakekde and
> replace it by longer but more readable instructions ;)
regarding cs and cb, I agree.
>
> Dominik


 
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