kbattleship and welcome screen

After a number of failed attempts and experiment, I'm
starting to be a bit 
dubious about the whole 'welcome screen' thing [1] [2]. 
The idea is good, in principle: after the game has started,
the user should be 
given all the information on the existing types of play. A
nice welcome 
screen, integrated with the game graphics, just seems like
the right thing to 
display.
However, many games (including kbattleship) require to user
to enter 
additional information before the game can actually be
started. For example, 
in kbattleship, when playing over the network, one has to
pick a nickname, 
and enter the tcp connection parameters.
All these additional things tend to complicate the welcome
screen interface, 
pushing it to the point where normal gui controls are
needed, thus breaking 
the integration with the game graphics, making flicker-free
animations 
practically impossible and requiring a lot of programming
effort, which is 
essentially wheel reinvention in many aspects (resizing,
layouting, handling 
mouse events...).
Plus, the controls are inconsistent with the kde style, and
do not use system 
colors. I agree that this may not be a problem for a game,
but in this 
particular case, we're not strictly dealing with a game, but
with 
the 'initial configuration' needed for a game to be started,
which is imho 
quite a different context, and I think that in this case
fancy graphics, 
albeit nice, probably get in the way.
On a side note, I've tried a particular approach (double
menu, see the 
screenshot in [2]) while integrating KWelcomeScreen in
kbattleship, and it 
resulted in a gross failure: even one of our game developers
had troubles 
figuring out how to start a network game!
That's not the main point of my rambling, though. The
interface can be 
simplified, and we already started working on this, but imho
even a 
simplified interface will have the flaws I've tried to
describe here.
My proposal is to forget about integrated welcome screens,
at least for 
kbattleship, and to add a normal dialog acting as a welcome
screen (like 
ksudoku, iirc).
I hope to hear some comments about this, so that I can
finally decide an 
approach and follow it. I've been experimenting with this
menu for quite some 
time, and I must say I'm a bit tired. I'd like to have all
this stuff settled 
down, so I can move on to more interesting things.

Paolo

[1] http://johann.pwsp.net/2007/04/09/a-new-game-starter/
[2] http://co
mmit-digest.org/issues/2007-04-15/
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Hi Paolo,


On Tue, June 12, 2007 10:36, Paolo Capriotti wrote:
> After a number of failed attempts and experiment, I'm
starting to be a bit
> dubious about the whole 'welcome screen' thing

I agree with you. These screens look really nice. However,
I'm not a good
friend of them (I mean not convinced yet) because:
 - it looks like Flash games but not like traditional
desktop application
so we have a consistency problem within KDE.
 - you're right with the "re-invent the
wheel"-thing". There are many
issues with layouts (for instance with i18n if you have a
long text in a
foreign language).


Maybe a nice dialog (with icons and nice widgets...) instead
of the
welcome screen could also be OK?
But I must agree: The welcome screens do look nice!...

Just my humble opinion.

-- 
Nicolas

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Nicolas Roffet wrote:
> On Tue, June 12, 2007 10:36, Paolo Capriotti wrote:
>> After a number of failed attempts and experiment,
I'm starting to be a bit
>> dubious about the whole 'welcome screen' thing
> 
> I agree with you. These screens look really nice.
However, I'm not a good
> friend of them (I mean not convinced yet) because:
>  - it looks like Flash games but not like traditional
desktop application
> so we have a consistency problem within KDE.
>  - you're right with the "re-invent the
wheel"-thing". There are many
> issues with layouts (for instance with i18n if you have
a long text in a
> foreign language).

I agree with you completely. Some of these points were
raised a while 
ago in IRC discussions, when we are deciding what to do with
statusbars 
and toolbars. There was no agreement, some people prefer the

desktop-integration path, while others prefer the
game-special-interface 
one. But I believe that having the KWelcomeScreen experiment
in 
kbattleship is a good thing so we can actually see the
problems (and 
solutions) it brings in action, and not only speculate on
them.

For me, KDE games should in theory implement the desktop
metaphors and 
behave just like any other KDE application. This means
toolbars and 
menus for actions, and status bar for feedback. Standard KDE
config 
dialogs and menu entries should be used as well. The point
is to make 
the game fit perfectly into the KDE-desktop style and
provide 
consistency. This will also guarantee that the games age
well in the 
future, as changes in the KDE UI and styles will
automatically be 
reflected, without the need for new in-game specific code.
So for 
KMahjongg and KMines for example I plan to stick to these
guidelines for 
now at least. But maybe having some games with
KWelcomeScreen-type 
solutions could also be a good experiment during the beta,
so we can get 
user feedback on it.

Regards,
Mauricio Piacentini
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On Tuesday 12 June 2007 16:30:12 Mauricio Piacentini wrote:
>
> I agree with you completely. Some of these points were
raised a while
> ago in IRC discussions, when we are deciding what to do
with statusbars
> and toolbars. There was no agreement, some people
prefer the
> desktop-integration path, while others prefer the
game-special-interface
> one. But I believe that having the KWelcomeScreen
experiment in
> kbattleship is a good thing so we can actually see the
problems (and
> solutions) it brings in action, and not only speculate
on them.

I agree that experimenting has been a good thing, but I
think that it's time 
to stop experimenting and to implement a definitive
solution.
I am pleased to see that there is quite a general agreement
on using a 
conventional approach, and I think that I'll take this route
from now on, and 
implement a ksudoku-like welcome screen.

> For me, KDE games should in theory implement the
desktop metaphors and
> behave just like any other KDE application. This means
toolbars and
> menus for actions, and status bar for feedback.
Standard KDE config
> dialogs and menu entries should be used as well. The
point is to make
> the game fit perfectly into the KDE-desktop style and
provide
> consistency. This will also guarantee that the games
age well in the
> future, as changes in the KDE UI and styles will
automatically be
> reflected, without the need for new in-game specific
code. 

I used to think that consistency could be sacrified for the
sake of a prettier  
and more immediate interface, but after trying with
kbattleship, I don't feel 
so sure anymore.
There are some advantages in implementing user interfaces
with custom 
graphics, such as the ability to add smooth animations and
the integration 
with the underlying game (concrete example: I don't think
it's possible to 
have a QWidget smoothly fade out revealing what's behind
using the current Qt 
API), but probably the lack of graphical effects could be
mitigated by future 
progresses in the Qt graphical system.

> But maybe having some games with KWelcomeScreen-type
> solutions could also be a good experiment during the
beta, so we can get
> user feedback on it.

I see, but I don't think kbattleship will be one of those.
Kollision is 
probably a better candidate, but right now my opinion on
this matter is so 
utterly reversed that I feel more like adding toolbars and
menus to it 

Paolo
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On Tuesday 12 June 2007, Paolo Capriotti wrote:
> After a number of failed attempts and experiment, I'm
starting to be a bit
> dubious about the whole 'welcome screen' thing [1]
[2].

if it's at all reassuring, i think it's exactly the right
approach for things 
like games.

> However, many games (including kbattleship) require to
user to enter
> additional information before the game can actually be
started. For
> example, in kbattleship, when playing over the network,
one has to pick a
> nickname, and enter the tcp connection parameters.
> All these additional things tend to complicate the
welcome screen
> interface, pushing it to the point where normal gui
controls are needed,
> thus breaking the integration with the game graphics,
making flicker-free
> animations practically impossible and requiring a lot
of programming
> effort, which is essentially wheel reinvention in many
aspects (resizing,
> layouting, handling mouse events...).

this sounds a lot like perfection-until-its-broken syndrome.


> Plus, the controls are inconsistent with the kde style,
and do not use
> system colors. I agree that this may not be a problem
for a game, but in
> this particular case, we're not strictly dealing with a
game, but with
> the 'initial configuration' needed for a game to be
started, which is imho
> quite a different context, and I think that in this
case fancy graphics,
> albeit nice, probably get in the way.

nah, games are supposed to fun. the fancy graphics don't get
in the way but 
make the experience generally better. trying to
overintellectualize the 
affair and say "but now we're getting user information,
so it's not really a 
game at this moment of execution" is probably off the
mark for games and 
edutainment apps. for productivity apps? sure. games? c'mon.
they're *games* 
=)

> On a side note, I've tried a particular approach
(double menu, see the
> screenshot in [2]) while integrating KWelcomeScreen in
kbattleship, and it
> resulted in a gross failure: even one of our game
developers had troubles
> figuring out how to start a network game!

this is pretty easily solved with some information on mouse
over. the issue 
with the kbattleship welcome screen is that it provides very
little 
information to the user; for instance it doesn't direct the
user to pick the 
type of game, it doesn't direct the user to "now start
placing your ships", 
etc. "You" should probably be "Human
Player" or something like that. iow, i'd 
take this either to a usability person or just take your
laptop to some 
friends, have them play around with it and tell you what
they are doing and 
thinking as they do it. ask them to do some basic tasks;
record what goes on 
and tweak based on that.

i'd also recommend for the widget issues with network game
to simply pop up 
a "regular" widget at that point.

but please, keep those intro screens. they are beautiful and
make it soooo 
easy to start a game quickly.

heck, if it would make a difference i'm willing to find a
few hours to sit on 
irc with you and hack on stuff?

> That's not the main point of my rambling, though. The
interface can be
> simplified, and we already started working on this, but
imho even a
> simplified interface will have the flaws I've tried to
describe here.
> My proposal is to forget about integrated welcome
screens, at least for
> kbattleship, and to add a normal dialog acting as a
welcome screen (like
> ksudoku, iirc).

well, ksudoku's entry screen is not a very good example. it
presents 2 
groupboxes (nested!) with 6 widgets just to go in an play a
simple game... 
it -feels- heavy. kbattleship also provides 6 widgets but it
feels fun and 
easy. the latter is certainly what the games should be
aiming for, imho.

-- 
Aaron J. Seigo
humru othro a kohnu se
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)

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On Tuesday 12 June 2007, Mauricio Piacentini wrote:
> Johann Ollivier Lapeyre
>
> > (i am a little bit under the ksoduku welcome
screen idea)  And
add
> > nice icons to it. I really prefer to get a
ksudoku's style welcome
> > screen on
> > every game than a kbattleship one on 1-2 because
it is hard to do.
>
> I like the ksudoku welcome screen idea as well, seems
much easier than

from a usability perspective, let me assure you that the
ksudoku screen is 
clearly sub-optimal.

it is very complete in that it offers all the possibilities
in one glance, but 
it does not reflect a natural flow and is very complex.
remember that the 
point of games such as these is to quickly fire up an
amusement, get rewarded 
with a sugar candy toy and then get on with playing. 

if one was to actually look at the usual play flow of
someone playing sudoku, 
you'd likely find that they'd want to just play a regular
9x9 grid. instead, 
ksudoku gets sidetracked into exposing all the potential of
the game. but 
people don't care about the full potential; they just want
to play. those who 
*do* care can explore the menus; this is where the welcome
screen shines as 
well: it can provide quick clicks to the common features and
a way to go to 
the more advanced stuff.

someone mentioned that there is visual similarity to flash
games; to which i'd 
say: great. ever notice how insanely popular those things
are and how much 
people like playing them? there are profitable companies who
have them as 
their primary offering. =)

-- 
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Full time KDE developer sponsored by Trolltech (http://www.trolltech.com
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Johann convinced me to try a welcome screen in kwin4,
because it already has 
an introduction screen without real function. I have
implemented an example 
version there. I noticed the following things while doing
it:

1) I was not really fond of the idea when Johann approached
me. However, I 
have to admit that since kwin4 has the welcome screen I ONLY
start the games 
via the welcome screen. So obviously it is useful 

2) There is clearly the problem on reinventing the wheel. I
think this point 
should not be underestimated. Making a complex layout with
graphic elements 
is in my opinion well beyond the necessary and should be
avoided.

However, what is possible is some simple buttons which can
be done easily with 
Qt graphics elements. Kwin4 introduced only one new and
small class 
(buttonsprite.cpp) to do all of this. 
[There is some additional code for the event handling, which
usually shouldn't 
be necessary but due to a bug in kwin4 or Qt QGV events are
not relayed 
properly to my QGraphicsItems.]

3) What I think is a useful approach is to not duplicate all
options of the 
game in the welcome screen but make it like a
shortcut/bookmark or whatever 
quick start thing. Make a handful of buttons for the most
important game 
type. No or only small hierachy, no or small layouts.

For example, although kwin4 is network aware I decided to
not put the network 
stuff in the welcome screen. The reason is that if you set
up a network game 
this is not a one click quick process anyway. However, what
I want to do fast 
is to quickly play a game against the AI. So this is
possible in the screen. 
Maybe have a look at kwin4 to see yourself (but keep in mind
that the 
graphics is not yet final)

4) The desktop games in KDE are in my opinion in the middle
of what some of 
you wrote: As part of KDE they should behave like a KDE
application. As games 
they should be fun and can have some nifty graphic features.
Although it is 
always difficult to sit in the middle I think this is
alright for the games. 
We just have to be a bit careful what we do. I think some
graphic buttons are 
alright as long as the rest of the game is KDE style. A
fullscreen only 
OpenGL application I personally would not want in kdegames.

5)  Despite unifying the games I actually would leave the
decision of the 
welcome screen to the game. If it fits the game do it, if
not don't do it. I 
can't see why this would confuse the users too much. With
KDE 4.0 out we 
probably get some user feedback on this and can see whether
we have to 
enforce a commen style







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On Tuesday 12 June 2007, Martin Heni wrote:
> Johann convinced me to try a welcome screen in kwin4,
because it already

+1

(woah. that was an easy reply ;)

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