Fwd: kgoldrunner data

Hi all,
I had a look at the KGoldrunner data files in search of
hints on how to 
translate some level title.

I have found there are a lot of messages that are marked as
NOTi18n, which I 
think was a workaround to prevent messages to get included
during a message 
freeze. Is it safe to remove the NOT now?

Moreover, many messages use the wrong punctuation (spaces
befor ! or .), and I 
think ellipsis use too many dots.......... 

I've changed the messages on my local copy and I'd like to
commit them, if 
it's actually ok to do so.

Ciao,
Luciano

-- 
Luciano Montanaro //
                X/ mikelimacirulla.net

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On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 12:06 am, Luciano Montanaro wrote:
> I had a look at the KGoldrunner data files in search of
hints on how to
> translate some level title.
>
Hi again, Luciano.  I guess you must be a translator.  I am
the author
of KGoldrunner.  A few months ago I changed the game-data
format
so that scripty can extract messages directly.  Previously I
had a
parallel copy of the messages in a pseudo-program file in
the /src
area, called data_messages.cpp, but that was causing a few
problems.

As far as I know, the texts of the messages themselves
should be
*unchanged* from KDE 3 to KDE 4 and you should have no new
translation work to do, except for a whole new game (State
of Terror,
in file "game_sot.txt").  I did quite a lot of
testing of the new data
format and went on the translators' list for a while to get
help with it.
If the messages are *not* the same, something is going wrong
and
I need to know more, so please email me details directly
about that.

Re hints on translating, I would like to put some i18nc in
the game-data
sometime, but I would also have to change the game-loading
code (low
priority, at the moment).  For now, the only hints on level
titles are what
the level looks like on the screen or how it plays.

> I have found there are a lot of messages that are
marked as NOTi18n,
> which I think was a workaround to prevent messages to
get included
> during a message freeze. Is it safe to remove the NOT
now?
>
"NOTi18n" is deliberate.  In championship-level
games the hints are
rather lengthy and I do not wish to place a burden on N
translators for
the sake of levels that might have only a few players in N
languages.
Also anybody who is that good a player might also understand
English
well or at least have a friend who does.

The whole game-data format is a pseudo-C++ code fragment
that is
acceptable to xgettext, so the messages not to be translated
are placed
in function parentheses and the pseudo function-name is
"NOTi18n".

> Moreover, many messages use the wrong punctuation
(spaces befor ! or .),
> and I think ellipsis use too many dots.......... 
>
> I've changed the messages on my local copy and I'd like
to commit them, if
> it's actually ok to do so.
>
Please don't.  I've had this argument before.  If you do not
like my
my idiosyncratic style of English, too bad.  I will defend
it to the
death .....  !!!!  And
this *is* a game I am writing for, not a technical
document.

Actually, I cannot stop you changing the messages, but
please
spare a thought for translators in other languages.  Any
change to
a message is multiplied by N and creates extra work for
them.  At
least, if my new game-data format is working as intended,
you will
not break KGoldrunner translations world-wide in *all*
languages,
as the last guy did ... :-(

Cheers, Ian W.
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On 6/24/07, Ian Wadham <ianw2optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 12:06 am, Luciano Montanaro wrote:
> > I had a look at the KGoldrunner data files in
search of hints on how to
> > translate some level title.
> >
> Hi again, Luciano.  I guess you must be a translator. 
I am the author
> of KGoldrunner.

Good guess. And nice to meet you! (!!)

 A few months ago I changed the game-data format
> so that scripty can extract messages directly. 
Previously I had a
> parallel copy of the messages in a pseudo-program file
in the /src
> area, called data_messages.cpp, but that was causing a
few problems.
>
> As far as I know, the texts of the messages themselves
should be
> *unchanged* from KDE 3 to KDE 4 and you should have no
new
> translation work to do, except for a whole new game
(State of Terror,
> in file "game_sot.txt").  I did quite a lot
of testing of the new data
> format and went on the translators' list for a while to
get help with it.
> If the messages are *not* the same, something is going
wrong and
> I need to know more, so please email me details
directly about that.
>

Yes, well, there have been a few canges, but nothing large.

> Re hints on translating, I would like to put some i18nc
in the game-data
> sometime, but I would also have to change the
game-loading code (low
> priority, at the moment).  For now, the only hints on
level titles are what
> the level looks like on the screen or how it plays.
>
> > I have found there are a lot of messages that are
marked as NOTi18n,
> > which I think was a workaround to prevent messages
to get included
> > during a message freeze. Is it safe to remove the
NOT now?
> >
> "NOTi18n" is deliberate.  In
championship-level games the hints are
> rather lengthy and I do not wish to place a burden on N
translators for
> the sake of levels that might have only a few players
in N languages.
> Also anybody who is that good a player might also
understand English
> well or at least have a friend who does.
>

Well, I have been translating really useless messages in the
past, but
I do not think translating these would be a waste of effort.
And you
are wrong about the level of English uderstanding,
especially if you
count younger people (Well, in my time, I used games as an
opportunity
to improve my English... but then what's the point in
translating the
game at all?). Anyway, it's up to you, but I think that
marking the
messages as translatable would be a good move, and it would
be better
to do it now than later in the development cycle. At worst,
some of
the translations will be incomplete --- big deal.

> The whole game-data format is a pseudo-C++ code
fragment that is
> acceptable to xgettext, so the messages not to be
translated are placed
> in function parentheses and the pseudo function-name is
"NOTi18n".
>
> > Moreover, many messages use the wrong punctuation
(spaces befor ! or .),
> > and I think ellipsis use too many dots..........

> >
> > I've changed the messages on my local copy and I'd
like to commit them, if
> > it's actually ok to do so.
> >
> Please don't.  I've had this argument before.  If you
do not like my
> my idiosyncratic style of English, too bad.  I will
defend it to the
> death .....  !!!!  And
this *is* a game I am writing for, not a technical
> document.
>
> Actually, I cannot stop you changing the messages, but
please
> spare a thought for translators in other languages. 
Any change to
> a message is multiplied by N and creates extra work for
them.  At
> least, if my new game-data format is working as
intended, you will
> not break KGoldrunner translations world-wide in *all*
languages,
> as the last guy did ... :-(
>

Ok, Ok, I'll leave the messages as they are. But in Italian
they'll
lose the extra spaces. And I'm considering getting rid of
the smileys
too! }

> Cheers, Ian W.
> _______________________________________________
> kde-games-devel mailing list
> kde-games-develkde.org
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-games-devel
>
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On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 08:05 pm, Luciano Montanaro wrote:
> > "NOTi18n" is deliberate.
>
> Well, I have been translating really useless messages
in the past, but
> I do not think translating these would be a waste of
effort. And you
> are wrong about the level of English uderstanding,
especially if you
> count younger people (Well, in my time, I used games as
an opportunity
> to improve my English... but then what's the point in
translating the
> game at all?).
>
What's the point in programming a game for that matter?  The
point
is fun ... and mental exercise.  The more translations there
are the
more people have that opportunity.  And games throw up a lot
of
programming challenges.  I might go so far as to say that
games
and graphics have driven the development of the PC in the
last
20-30 years.

> Anyway, it's up to you, but I think that marking the
messages
> as translatable would be a good move, and it would be
better 
> to do it now than later in the development cycle. At
worst, some
> of the translations will be incomplete --- big deal.
>
KGoldrunner has more message bytes than most games, so I
feel it is grabbing more than its fair share of translators'
time.  Only
a minority of players would reach the difficult levels and
then they
might not have to ask for a hint, so I have been leaving
those hints
untranslated (i.e. I left them out of the original
data_messages.cpp
file).

And I got the impression the translation teams are so
competitive
they would never just leave stuff untranslated ... 

> Ok, Ok, I'll leave the messages as they are. But in
Italian they'll
> lose the extra spaces. And I'm considering getting rid
of the smileys
> too! }
>
Isn't there an Italian saying about translators and
traitors? 
Seriously, please do whatever you like in Italian, as long
as you
try to preserve the intent of the original, especially the
tutorials.

Ciao, Ian W.

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On domenica 24 giugno 2007, Ian Wadham wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 08:05 pm, Luciano Montanaro wrote:
> > > "NOTi18n" is deliberate.
> >
> > Well, I have been translating really useless
messages in the past, but
> > I do not think translating these would be a waste
of effort. And you
> > are wrong about the level of English uderstanding,
especially if you
> > count younger people (Well, in my time, I used
games as an opportunity
> > to improve my English... but then what's the point
in translating the
> > game at all?).
>
> What's the point in programming a game for that matter?
 The point
> is fun ... and mental exercise.  The more translations
there are the
> more people have that opportunity.  And games throw up
a lot of
> programming challenges.  I might go so far as to say
that games
> and graphics have driven the development of the PC in
the last
> 20-30 years.

Uhm, well, mine was a rethorical question... It didn't
actually require an 
answer. My point is that if one wants to use KGoldrunner to
learn english, 
he could use it in the English locale. Otherwise, he would
be well entitled 
to a completely translated game.

So do you intend to make the messages translatable or not,
in the end?

>
> > Anyway, it's up to you, but I think that marking
the messages
> > as translatable would be a good move, and it would
be better
> > to do it now than later in the development cycle.
At worst, some
> > of the translations will be incomplete --- big
deal.
>
> KGoldrunner has more message bytes than most games, so
I
> feel it is grabbing more than its fair share of
translators' time.  Only
> a minority of players would reach the difficult levels
and then they
> might not have to ask for a hint, so I have been
leaving those hints
> untranslated (i.e. I left them out of the original
data_messages.cpp
> file).
>
> And I got the impression the translation teams are so
competitive
> they would never just leave stuff untranslated ... 
>

Well, that may well be. This may be an indication that more
burden is 
probably not too much. Seriously, I do not think there would
be too many 
new messages to handle. Yes, they are a bit long, but I
would not consider 
having them translated a wasted effort.

> > Ok, Ok, I'll leave the messages as they are. But
in Italian they'll
> > lose the extra spaces. And I'm considering getting
rid of the smileys
> > too! }
>
> Isn't there an Italian saying about translators and
traitors? 

None that I know of. Feel free to make one up, if you like.


> Seriously, please do whatever you like in Italian, as
long as you
> try to preserve the intent of the original, especially
the tutorials.
>

I think the translation is fine.

There is another issue: The game refers toi the
"hero" as the green man, but 
current default graphics does not show green anywhere. Maybe
that part 
should be changed.

Ciao,
Luciano
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On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 07:14 pm, Luciano Montanaro wrote:
> Seriously, I do not think there would be too many new
messages
> to handle. Yes, they are a bit long, but I would not
consider 
> having them translated a wasted effort.
>
Oh well, you've talked me into it.  57 long messages coming
up! 

> There is another issue: The game refers to the
"hero" as the green man,
> but current default graphics does not show green
anywhere. Maybe that
> part should be changed.
>
Yes.  The doco will have the same problem.  With theming,
the
hero could be any color or shape, so how do the doco and
tutorial
describe him and the enemies?  I'll have to think about
that.  Also
the screen shots in the doco need updating when the default
theme
has been finalised ... and the sections explaining the
screen shots ...

Cheers, Ian W.
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On luned́ 25 giugno 2007, Ian Wadham wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 07:14 pm, Luciano Montanaro wrote:
> > Seriously, I do not think there would be too many
new messages
> > to handle. Yes, they are a bit long, but I would
not consider
> > having them translated a wasted effort.
>
> Oh well, you've talked me into it.  57 long messages
coming up! 

Eh, eh! Great. I'll be at the aKademy, if the other
translator teams want to 
have a word with me.

>
> > There is another issue: The game refers to the
"hero" as the green man,
> > but current default graphics does not show green
anywhere. Maybe that
> > part should be changed.
>
> Yes.  The doco will have the same problem.  With
theming, the
> hero could be any color or shape, so how do the doco
and tutorial
> describe him and the enemies?  I'll have to think about
that.  Also
> the screen shots in the doco need updating when the
default theme
> has been finalised ... and the sections explaining the
screen shots ...
>

Yes, it's not really an easy problem to solve. You may
simply update the 
description to match the default graphics. 

If rich text is allowed in the game, one frame from the hero
animation may 
be shown in line with the text.

For the manual, it may be a bit easier, the default graphics
will suffice.

What would be great would be to have some sort of
"attract" mode for the 
game, like on old style arcade machines, showing the
gameplay with an 
animation. But I can wait for KDE 4.1 forthat ;)

Luciano

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