blue sky thinking

Really, for most outfits there is no reason not to outsource
hosting
services.  For less than $20/mo you can get an account from
higher end
outfits like PAIR that include multiple (my or pg)sql
databases, php4,
apache, and full cgi-bin access which is all the components
that are in
the lamp stack.  It is hard for most outfits to provide the
power and
net connection redundancy that a data center provides.

If you insist on building yourself a server, Debian and
FreeBSD are the
most widely used server operating systems on the Internet
for good
reason.  They have command line interfaces, are easy to
manage (if you
read the documentation in detail), they are not exciting,
and they are
stable.  Apt-get (Debian) and the FreeBSD ports system makes
installing
the packages you need easy.  There are also binary security
updates for
both.  For FreeBSD, you can get a system up within half an
hour via a
FTP install, and maybe and hour or two for installing all
the packages
that you need (apache, php, etc.).  Again, read the
documentation, then
read it again, before you even get started. Better yet,
there are
quality books written for these two, rather than the
quantity of drivel
written for stuff like Red Hat.  There's a reason why these
two are the
usual chosen operating systems for hosting companies (just
look at
netcraft stats).

Lastly, it is extremely foolish to hire a full time employee
for $100k a
year just to admin a few servers.  For someone that needs to
manage
maybe 3000 to 4000 servers (the number of servers for a
small hosting
company), that would make more sense.  You would also expect
for this
person to travel long distances on their own time and be on
call.  If
you hire a consultant, or a contractor for a few hours of
work, $50/hr
does make sense.  


-----Original Message-----
From: web4lib-bounceswebjunction.org
[mailto:web4lib-bounceswebjunction.org] On Behalf Of John Fereira
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 10:54 AM
To: Aslin, Verna
Cc: web4libwebjunction.org
Subject: Re: [Web4lib] blue sky thinking

Aslin, Verna wrote:
> I can guardedly endorse the suggestion that libraries
outsource their
> websites to a commercial server. We have been running a
site on an
> external server for the past 4 years. 
For the most part it seems that much of the discussion so
far in this 
thread has been focused on the merits of outsourcing the
administration 
and management of a commercial server which hosts a website.
 I thought 
I'd chime in as a web application developer with some other
issues to 
consider.

Basically, for website projects that I am involved with it
takes more 
than one server to fully support it.  Typically there is one
machine 
that is considered the production server, a desktop machine
that I use 
for development, and ideally a machine that is used as a
"test" 
environment that may or may not be used as a redundant
machine in case 
the production machine goes down.   In other words, I never
make changes

directly on the production machine, but rather,  manage the
code base 
from a central location (using a source control system) and
build and 
deploy the web application first to my development machine
so that other

team member can evaluate/test any changes before deploying
them to the 
production machine.  It might make sense to farm out support
for a 
production machine but for larger projects, IMHO, you're
still going to 
need systems (and someone to manage them) in house for
development.

Someone else mention the need to have root access to the
machine.  
Speaking personally, I've been a programmer and system
administrator 
since the early 80's and have almost always had root access
on machines 
that I've worked on.  I feel crippled otherwise.

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Hash: SHA1


On Jul 27, 2006, at 1:49 PM, Wong, Channing wrote:


>
> Lastly, it is extremely foolish to hire a full time
employee for  
> $100k a
> year just to admin a few servers.  For someone that
needs to manage
> maybe 3000 to 4000 servers (the number of servers for a
small hosting
> company), that would make more sense.  You would also
expect for this
> person to travel long distances on their own time and
be on call.  If
> you hire a consultant, or a contractor for a few hours
of work, $50/hr
> does make sense.

Hey! I was going to forward this to my bosses!  Tell them
how  
underpaid I am.

regards,
./fxk

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On Jul 27, 2006, at 1:49 PM, Wong, Channing wrote:


>
> Lastly, it is extremely foolish to hire a full time
employee for  
> $100k a
> year just to admin a few servers.  For someone that
needs to manage
> maybe 3000 to 4000 servers (the number of servers for a
small hosting
> company), that would make more sense.  You would also
expect for this
> person to travel long distances on their own time and
be on call.  If
> you hire a consultant, or a contractor for a few hours
of work, $50/hr
> does make sense.

Hey! I was going to forward this to my bosses!  Tell them
how  
underpaid I am.

regards,
./fxk

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=A4B6
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bjunction.org/web4lib/

> > Lastly, it is extremely foolish to hire a full
time employee for
> > $100k a
> > year just to admin a few servers.  For someone
that needs to manage
> > maybe 3000 to 4000 servers (the number of servers
for a small hosting
> > company), that would make more sense.  You would
also expect for this
> > person to travel long distances on their own time
and be on call.  If
> > you hire a consultant, or a contractor for a few
hours of work, $50/hr
> > does make sense.
> 
> Hey! I was going to forward this to my bosses!  Tell them
how
> underpaid I am.
> 
> regards,
> ./fxk

As long as we're still relating this to the cost of doing
business, which is
relevant to this discussion, I hate to tell you how low your
salary has to
be in order for the *fully loaded* cost of one FTE to be no
more than $100k.
That's salary, benefits (health, which could be a family
plan; retirement;
etc.), training, SS, the chair he or she sits in, the
computer he or she
uses, the bandwidth and space (even parking) she takes up...
meatware is
expensive. That's before the meatware takes family leave or
gets RSI or
falls off a chair reaching for the box of backup tapes...

Karen G. Schneider
kgsbluehighways.com 

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> > Lastly, it is extremely foolish to hire a full
time employee for
> > $100k a
> > year just to admin a few servers.  For someone
that needs to manage
> > maybe 3000 to 4000 servers (the number of servers
for a small hosting
> > company), that would make more sense.  You would
also expect for this
> > person to travel long distances on their own time
and be on call.  If
> > you hire a consultant, or a contractor for a few
hours of work, $50/hr
> > does make sense.
> 
> Hey! I was going to forward this to my bosses!  Tell them
how
> underpaid I am.
> 
> regards,
> ./fxk

As long as we're still relating this to the cost of doing
business, which is
relevant to this discussion, I hate to tell you how low your
salary has to
be in order for the *fully loaded* cost of one FTE to be no
more than $100k.
That's salary, benefits (health, which could be a family
plan; retirement;
etc.), training, SS, the chair he or she sits in, the
computer he or she
uses, the bandwidth and space (even parking) she takes up...
meatware is
expensive. That's before the meatware takes family leave or
gets RSI or
falls off a chair reaching for the box of backup tapes...

Karen G. Schneider
kgsbluehighways.com 

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bjunction.org/web4lib/

Wong, Channing wrote:
> Really, for most outfits there is no reason not to
outsource hosting
> services.  For less than $20/mo you can get an account
from higher end
> outfits like PAIR that include multiple (my or pg)sql
databases, php4,
> apache, and full cgi-bin access which is all the
components that are in
> the lamp stack.  It is hard for most outfits to provide
the power and
> net connection redundancy that a data center provides.
Not dispute with this, but ...

... an alternate use case:

Out library cares about digital library work.  We have about
50 SQL 
database sets, half a terrabyte of images (many of which are
MrSid, so 
another application has to co-operate in serving them),
along with tens 
of thousands of documents, and something between 10 and 20
million hits 
projected by the end of the year.  I've never bothered
counting the 
bytes out over the wire. In short, not a five page website.

We couldn't begin to afford a commercial outsourcing
solution.  What we 
have is a non-commercial arrangement with the local school
board, who 
has a team of network specialists that take care of
connectivity, 
firewalls, DNS and essentially all of the off-server
services except 
remote monitoring.  We maintain the rack (remotely).  Oh,
and it's no 
one's full time job.

All of this runs on a tiny fraction of the budget for
"maintenance" of 
the local ILS (where "maintenace" equals
recorded parrot saying "submit 
an enhancement request, awk".)

Walter Lewis
Halton Hills
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Wong, Channing wrote:
> Really, for most outfits there is no reason not to
outsource hosting
> services.  For less than $20/mo you can get an account
from higher end
> outfits like PAIR that include multiple (my or pg)sql
databases, php4,
> apache, and full cgi-bin access which is all the
components that are in
> the lamp stack.  It is hard for most outfits to provide
the power and
> net connection redundancy that a data center provides.
Not dispute with this, but ...

... an alternate use case:

Out library cares about digital library work.  We have about
50 SQL 
database sets, half a terrabyte of images (many of which are
MrSid, so 
another application has to co-operate in serving them),
along with tens 
of thousands of documents, and something between 10 and 20
million hits 
projected by the end of the year.  I've never bothered
counting the 
bytes out over the wire. In short, not a five page website.

We couldn't begin to afford a commercial outsourcing
solution.  What we 
have is a non-commercial arrangement with the local school
board, who 
has a team of network specialists that take care of
connectivity, 
firewalls, DNS and essentially all of the off-server
services except 
remote monitoring.  We maintain the rack (remotely).  Oh,
and it's no 
one's full time job.

All of this runs on a tiny fraction of the budget for
"maintenance" of 
the local ILS (where "maintenace" equals
recorded parrot saying "submit 
an enhancement request, awk".)

Walter Lewis
Halton Hills
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bjunction.org/web4lib/