Re : Paperless society

THERE WAS AN INTERESTING POINT IN RELATION TO THIS THAT CAME
UP AT A RECENT LOCAL LAW LIBRARIANS MEETING. QUICKLAW WAS
MOST CANADIAN LEGAL LIBRARIANS FIRST STOP FOR ANY CASELAW OR
LEGAL LITERATURE. IT WAS BOUGHT BY LEXIS NEXIS AND MAJOR
CHANGES WERE RECENTLY MADE TO QL'S FRONT END SO IT RESEMBLES
THE LEXIS SITE AND ITS FUNCTIONALITY. FAIR ENOUGH, I CAN
UNDERSTAND WHY THEY DID THAT. THING IS, WHAT CAME UP AT OUR
MEETING WAS THAT SOME OF MY COLLEAGUES NOTICED  CANADIAN
EDITORIAL CONTENT DRYING UP. CERTAIN OF THE LESSER USED (BUT
NOT UNUSED) PARTS FROM QUICKLAW HAVE BEEN DROPPED. FOR A
RELATIVELY SMALL MARKET LIKE CANADIA, THIS IS WORRYING
ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF THE FACT THAT EVERY WEEK ON THE CALL
LISTSERV (CDN ASSOC OF LAW LIBRARIANS) YOU WILL SEE WHOLE
SETS OF HARDBOUND LAW REPORTS BEING GIVEN AWAY FOR THE COST
OF SHIPPING. IS WHAT WE RELIED ON TO TAKE THE PLACE OF OUR
PAPER REPORTS - ONLINE SERVICES - LOSING COMPREHENSIVITY? 

I AM ALL FOR GOING MORE AND MORE ONLINE, ESP IN A PAPER
HEAVY LEGAL SETTING - BUT SHOULDN'T WE BE ABLE TO RELY ON
THE BIG CENTRAL DATA HOLDERS LIKE LEXIS OR WESTLAW TO KEEP
THEIR ARCHIVES? THEIR WEEDING WORRIES ME!

ANDY 

----- MESSAGE D'ORIGINE ----
DE : PETER KEANE <PKEANEMAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>
À : "ANDERSON, PATRICIA" <PFAUMICH.EDU>
CC : JOCELYN SHAW <REDFERNSHAWGMAIL.COM>; WEB4LIBWEBJUNCTION.ORG
ENVOYé LE : LUNDI, 11 FéVRIER 2008, 12H39MN 15S
OBJET : RE: [WEB4LIB] PAPERLESS SOCIETY

I FIND IT USEFUL TO STEP BACK AND, RATHER THAN THINK ABOUT
PAPER-VS-DIGITAL, THINK ABOUT ALL OF THE OPTIONS WE HAVE FOR
INFORMATION
STORAGE AND RETRIEVAL AND BEGIN TO EVALUATE EACH FOR ITS
COSTS,
BENEFITS, ETC. METRICS LIKE "OLD" VS.
"NEW" ARE NOT NEARLY AS USEFUL AS
COST TO PRODUCE, LONG TERM VIABILITY, COST TO PRESERVE,
ACCESSIBILITY,
ACCESS DEPENDENCIES, ETC. I LOOK FORWARD TO A TIME WHEN WE
CONSIDER
BOOKS AS SIMPLY ANOTHER TECHNOLOGY WITH ALL SORTS OF
EMERGENT PROPETIES,
SOME GOOD, SOME NOT-SO-GOOD.

I OFTEN RECOMMEND LINUS TORVALD'S GOOGLE TECH TALK ABOUT
DISTRIBUTED
SOURCE CONTROL [0] TO FOLKS INTERESTED IN WHERE THINGS ARE
HEADING.
AND IT IS CERTAINLY NOT CENTALIZED DATA STORAGE AND DIGITAL
"MASTER"
COPIES. IF YOU THINK ABOUT LINUS WANTING THE ENTIRE LINUX
SOURCE CODE
HISTORY READILY ACCESSIBLE ON HIS OWN MACHINE AND THEN THINK
ABOUT
A REFERENCE LIBRARIAN WHO WANTS A SHELF FULL OF PHONE BOOKS
RIGHT
BEHIND THE REFERENCE DESK, I SUSPECT YOU MIGHT SEE SOME VERY
REAL
COMMONALITIES.

--PETER KEANE
DASEPROJECT.ORG
THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN

[0] HTTP://WWW.YOUTUBE.COM/WATCH?V=4XPNKHJAOK8


ON MON, FEB 11, 2008 AT 10:38:40AM -0500, ANDERSON, PATRICIA
WROTE:
> PERSONALLY, BEING A TAD ON THE PARANOID SIDE, IF THE
INFORMATION IS ELECTRONIC AND SUDDENLY DISAPPEARS, IT IS
EXTREMELY USEFUL TO HAVE A PAPER ARCHIVE TO PROVE YOU
WEREN'T HALLUCINATING.  I AM A
HUGE FAN OF REDUNDANCY, ESPECIALLY FOR CRITICAL INFORMATION.
BY "CRITICAL" I MEAN ANY INFORMATION THAT MIGHT BE
ESSENTIAL IN CASE OF A DISASTER RESPONSE SCENARIO. PHONE
BOOKS ARE AN EXCELLENT EXAMPLE OF THE TYPE OF INFORMATION
THAT IS OFTEN OVERLOOKED ON A DAILY BASIS BUT WHICH BECOME
ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL IN A DISASTER OR CRISIS. 
> 
> I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO SEE LIBRARIANS, AS A COLLECTIVE,
PARTNER WITH OTHER SERVICE PROFESSIONS TO DEVELOP AN AGREED
UPON SET OF CORE INFORMATION THAT REQUIRES DUPLICATION IN A
VARIETY OF LOCATIONS AND FORMATS FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISASTER
AND CRISIS PREPARATION AND RESPONSE.
> 
>  -- PATRICIA ANDERSON, PFAUMICH.EDU
> 
> -----ORIGINAL MESSAGE-----
> FROM: WEB4LIB-BOUNCESWEBJUNCTION.ORG ON BEHALF
OF DAVID ROTHMAN
> SENT: MON 2/11/2008 10:04 AM
> TO: CAROL BEAN
> CC: JOCELYN SHAW; WEB4LIBWEBJUNCTION.ORG
> SUBJECT: RE: [WEB4LIB] PAPERLESS SOCIETY
>  
> AND IT IS CONVENIENT TO HAVE A HORSE-AND-BUGGY IF YOUR
CAR BREAKS DOWN.  SO?
> 
> ON FEB 11, 2008 9:51 AM, CAROL BEAN <BEANWORKSGMAIL.COM> WROTE:
> 
> > NOT SO INEFFICIENT WHEN THE INTERNET CONNECTION IS
DOWN OR NON-EXISTENT
> >
> > CAROL
> >
> >
> > ON FEB 11, 2008 9:35 AM, DAVID ROTHMAN
<DAVID.ROTHMANGMAIL.COM> WROTE:
> >
> > > JOCELYN-
> > >
> > > TELEPHONE BOOKS ARE *MUCH* MORE SCARCE THAN
THEY USED TO BE.  THAT YOU
> > > CONTINUE TO USE THE MOST INEFFICIENT
AVAILABLE CONTAINER FOR THIS SORT
> > > OF
> > > INFORMATION DOESN'T MAKE THE ASSERTION SILLY
OR WRONG.
> > >
> > > -DAVID
> > > DAVID ROTHMAN
> > > COMMUNITY GENERAL HOSPITAL MEDICAL LIBRARY
> > > SYRACUSE, NY
> > >  ON FEB 11, 2008 9:29 AM, JOCELYN SHAW
<REDFERNSHAWGMAIL.COM> WROTE:
> > >
> > > > I HAD TO CHUCKLE AT THE QUOTE:
> > > >
> > > >  "'PAPER IS NO LONGER THE MASTER
COPY; THE DIGITAL VERSION IS,' SAYS
> > > > BREWSTER KAHLE, THE FOUNDER AND DIRECTOR
OF THE INTERNET ARCHIVE, A
> > > > NONPROFIT DIGITAL LIBRARY. 'PAPER HAS
BEEN DEALT A COMPLETE DEATHBLOW.
> > > > WHEN
> > > > WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW A TELEPHONE
BOOK?'"...
> > > >
> > > > HAVING USED THE PHONE BOOK TWICE IN THE
LAST 20 MINUTES TO ANSWER
> > > > REFERENCE
> > > > QUESTIONS I FOUND IT QUITE HUMOROUS.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > JOCELYN SHAW
> > > > LIBRARIAN
> > > > HACKLEY PUBLIC LIBRARY
> > > > 316 W WEBSTER
> > > > MUSKEGON MI 49440
> > > >
> > > > THE SMARTEST CARD. GET IT. USE IT.
> > > >  THE HACKLEY PUBLIC LIBRARY
> > > >
_______________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > CAROL BEAN
> > BEANWORKSGMAIL.COM
> _______________________________________________
> WEB4LIB MAILING LIST
> WEB4LIBWEBJUNCTION.ORG
> HTTP://LISTS.WEBJUNCTION.ORG/WEB4LIB/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> WEB4LIB MAILING LIST
> WEB4LIBWEBJUNCTION.ORG
> HTTP://LISTS.WEBJUNCTION.ORG/WEB4LIB/
_______________________________________________
WEB4LIB MAILING LIST
WEB4LIBWEBJUNCTION.ORG
HTTP://LISTS.WEBJUNCTION.ORG/WEB4LIB/


     
____________________________________________________________
_________________ 
NE GARDEZ PLUS QU'UNE SEULE ADRESSE MAIL ! COPIEZ VOS MAILS
VERS YAHOO! MAIL HTTP://MAIL.YAHOO.FR
_______________________________________________
WEB4LIB MAILING LIST
WEB4LIBWEBJUNCTION.ORG
HTTP://LISTS.WEBJUNCTION.ORG/WEB4LIB/

I strongly suspect that in years to come we'll move towards
a
distributed data model where data resides locally as well as
remotely (I
don't say "centrally", since there could be many
"master" copies that
are verifiably identical to other copies). Asynchronous
"syncing up"
with a trusted remote source might happen regularly, so our
local data
is both correct AND not subject to the whims of network
access, etc. A
local copy could regularly "mix-in" other
resources as well (say, data
more important to a local constituency).

As things stand, a publisher's print run of a valued
reference source
is our equivalent to a "synching up" with a
trusted source, and the
benefits of such should not be underestimated. And the
marginal
notations that we relied on, edited, etc. at the reference
desk in
certain works are the print equivalent to digital data
"mash-ups" -- of
course the digital realm allows those mixins to be carried
over to a new
data set, and w/ print we would need to hold on to our
annotated copy to
enjoy its benefits.

We ought to keep in mind that sometime in the not-so-distant
future,
ALL existing telephone numbers will fit on a thumb drive.
Better that
we focus on search/retrieval/indexing/sync-ing of very large
data sets
(and of course being constantly aware of the incredible
benefits of
data-on-paper, even if it on produced just-in-time).

Actually, there's no good reason that I shouldn't be able to
download my
entire university's online catalog (with regularly sync-ed
updates) and
use whatever search tools that Windows 2015 or Mac OS 10.9 
offer for
searching structured data. .

--peter keane
daseproject.org
The University of Texas at Austin


On Mon, 11 Feb 2008, Andy Murdoch wrote:

> There was an interesting point in relation to this that
came up at a
>recent local law librarians meeting. Quicklaw was most
Canadian legal
>librarians first stop for any caselaw or legal
literature. It was
>bought by Lexis Nexis and major changes were recently
made to QL's
>front end so it resembles the Lexis site and its
functionality. Fair
>enough, I can understand why they did that. Thing is,
what came up at
>our meeting was that some of my colleagues noticed
Canadian editorial
>content drying up. Certain of the lesser used (but not
unused) parts
>from Quicklaw have been dropped. For a relatively small
market like
>Canadia, this is worrying especially in light of the
fact that every
>week on the CALL listserv (Cdn Assoc of Law Librarians)
you will see
>whole sets of hardbound law reports being given away for
the cost of
>shipping. Is what we relied on to take the place of our
paper reports -
>online services - losing comprehensivity?
>
> I am all for going more and more online, esp in a paper
heavy legal
>setting - but shouldn't we be able to rely on the big
central data
>holders like Lexis or Westlaw to keep their archives?
Their weeding
>worries me!
>
> Andy 
>
> ----- Message d'origine ----
> De : Peter Keane <pkeanemail.utexas.edu>
> À : "Anderson, Patricia" <pfaumich.edu>
> Cc : Jocelyn Shaw <redfernshawgmail.com>; web4libwebjunction.org
> Envoyé le : Lundi, 11 Février 2008, 12h39mn 15s
> Objet : Re: [Web4lib] Paperless society
>
> I find it useful to step back and, rather than think
about
> paper-vs-digital, think about all of the options we
have for information
> storage and retrieval and begin to evaluate each for
its costs,
> benefits, etc. Metrics like "old" vs.
"new" are not nearly as useful as
> cost to produce, long term viability, cost to preserve,
accessibility,
> access dependencies, etc. I look forward to a time when
we consider
> books as simply another technology with all sorts of
emergent propeties,
> some good, some not-so-good.
>
> I often recommend Linus Torvald's Google Tech Talk
about distributed
> source control [0] to folks interested in where things
are heading.
> And it is certainly NOT centalized data storage and
digital "master"
> copies. If you think about Linus wanting the entire
Linux source code
> history readily accessible on his own machine and then
think about
> a reference librarian who wants a shelf full of phone
books right
> behind the reference desk, I suspect you might see some
very real
> commonalities.
>
> --peter keane
> daseproject.org
> The University of Texas at Austin
>
> [0] http://www
.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 10:38:40AM -0500, Anderson,
Patricia wrote:
>> Personally, being a tad on the paranoid side, if
the information is electronic and suddenly disappears, it is
extremely useful to have a paper archive to prove you
weren't hallucinating.  I am a
HUGE fan of redundancy, especially for critical information.
By "critical" I mean any information that might be
essential in case of a disaster response scenario. Phone
books are an excellent example of the type of information
that is often overlooked on a daily basis but which become
absolutely essential in a disaster or crisis. 
>> 
>> I would really like to see librarians, as a
collective, partner with other service professions to
develop an agreed upon set of core information that requires
duplication in a variety of locations and formats for the
purpose of disaster and crisis preparation and response.
>>
>>  -- Patricia Anderson, pfaumich.edu
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: web4lib-bounceswebjunction.org on behalf
of David Rothman
>> Sent: Mon 2/11/2008 10:04 AM
>> To: Carol Bean
>> Cc: Jocelyn Shaw; web4libwebjunction.org
>> Subject: Re: [Web4lib] Paperless society
>> 
>> And it is convenient to have a horse-and-buggy if
your car breaks down.  So?
>> 
>> On Feb 11, 2008 9:51 AM, Carol Bean
<beanworksgmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Not so inefficient when the internet
connection is down or non-existent
>> >
>> > Carol
>> >
>> >
>> > On Feb 11, 2008 9:35 AM, David Rothman
<david.rothmangmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Jocelyn-
>> > >
>> > > Telephone books are *much* more scarce
than they used to be.  That you
>> > > continue to use the most inefficient
available container for this sort
>> > > of
>> > > information doesn't make the assertion
silly or wrong.
>> > >
>> > > -David
>> > > David Rothman
>> > > Community General Hospital Medical
Library
>> > > Syracuse, NY
>> > >  On Feb 11, 2008 9:29 AM, Jocelyn Shaw
<redfernshawgmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > I had to chuckle at the quote:
>> > > >
>> > > >  "'Paper is no longer the
master copy; the digital version is,' says
>> > > > Brewster Kahle, the founder and
director of the Internet Archive, a
>> > > > nonprofit digital library. 'Paper
has been dealt a complete deathblow.
>> > > > When
>> > > > was the last time you saw a
telephone book?'"...
>> > > >
>> > > > Having used the phone book twice in
the last 20 minutes to answer
>> > > > reference
>> > > > questions I found it quite
humorous.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Jocelyn Shaw
>> > > > Librarian
>> > > > Hackley Public Library
>> > > > 316 W Webster
>> > > > Muskegon MI 49440
>> > > >
>> > > > The Smartest Card. Get it. Use it.
>> > > >  the Hackley Public
Library
>> > > >
_______________________________________________
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Carol Bean
>> > beanworksgmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Web4lib mailing list
>> Web4libwebjunction.org
>> http://lists.we
bjunction.org/web4lib/
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Web4lib mailing list
>> Web4libwebjunction.org
>> http://lists.we
bjunction.org/web4lib/
> _______________________________________________
> Web4lib mailing list
> Web4libwebjunction.org
> http://lists.we
bjunction.org/web4lib/
>
>
>     
____________________________________________________________
_________________ 
> Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos
mails vers Yahoo! Mail http://mail.yahoo.fr
> _______________________________________________
> Web4lib mailing list
> Web4libwebjunction.org
> http://lists.we
bjunction.org/web4lib/
>
_______________________________________________
Web4lib mailing list
Web4libwebjunction.org
http://lists.we
bjunction.org/web4lib/