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List Info
Thread: Web Languages
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| Web Languages |
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2008-07-14 14:45:35 |
Tim,
You may be right in the long run, if Ruby follows the
evolutionary path
of PHP, though I think PHP will adapt, with better
frameworks emerging
(like Symfony) and native Unicode support in PHP 6. As far
as Java goes,
I think it is the COBOL of the future. If you know if,
you'll probably
be able to find a legacy application to support for the rest
of your
life. And for many things, I still think it is a choice
development
language. For heavy duty OO programming, I really think a
strongly typed
language works better, and for that reason I do not see Ruby
or Python
being Java killers.
I would not totally discount your book sales data. It
certainly
indicates the level of interest in learning a technology.
However, I
don't think it is necessarily indicates traction for any
particular
technology.
My own unscientific metric for languages is searching the
Craigslist job
listing for the SF Bay Area. (This includes silicon valley.)
For my
purposes, I look at "internet engineering jobs"
and "web design jobs".
Here are today's numbers by keyword.
PHP Java Ruby Python
PERL
internet engineering jobs 110 71 22 19
109
web design jobs 167 246 85 98 31
It will be interesting to see how these numbers shift when
the first ROR
apps reach legacy status, as is currently happening with PHP
and
happened a few years back to PERL.
- David
---
David Cloutman <dcloutman co.marin.ca.us>
Electronic Services Librarian
Marin County Free Library
-----Original Message-----
From: web4lib-bounceswebjunction.org
[mailto:web4lib-bounceswebjunction.org] On Behalf Of Tim
Spalding
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 7:40 PM
To: Dan Scott
Cc: Marcie Pierson; Thomas Dowling; web4libwebjunction.org
Subject: Re: [Web4lib] RE: Open source support models
Incidentally, lest you think I'm being a language snob or
bending the
evidence to my own ends, I was a Perl hacker once and I
program in
PHP. I do not know Ruby-or Python for that matter. But I've
tried to
hire smart, young programmers-for Perl when I was at
Houghton Mifflin
and for PHP at LibraryThing. The top talent out there now
has mostly
gravitated to Ruby and Python. I *hate* that, but it is a
fact.
These is not some sort of bull feeling of mine, but are
exhaustively
documented every year by Tim O'Reilly in his yearly
book-industry
analyses. PHP, Java and C/C++ have shrunk five years
running. Ruby
came out of nowhere and is now quite
significant--particularly as Ruby
programmers seem to be less book-oriented than some others.
http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/03/state-of
-the-computer-book-mar-23.html
Tim
On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 10:26 PM, Tim Spalding <timlibrarything.com>
wrote:
> Thanks for the correction on Evergreen.
>
> I wouldn't say I needed correcting on VuFind, though.
Saying that
> VuFind isn't mostly PHP because there are chunks of
shell scripting
> and HTML is like saying that a car isn't made out of
steel and glass
> because it also has leather seats and pockets of air.
Much the same is
> true of SQL and, depending on what you're doing with
it, JavaScript.
> And if you're going to count lines HTML against lines
of code, you
> should also factor in all the GIF and JPEG images, not
to mention
> Cascading Style Sheets. This way lies madness.
>
> Tim
>
>> Ha! Fact-checking is readily available for a few of
these projects at
>> http://www.ohloh.net/projects/evergreen/analyses/latest (for
>> Evergreen) and h
ttp://www.ohloh.net/projects/10977/analyses/latest
>> (for VUFind).
>>
>> So a correction: the business logic of Evergreen is
written primarily
>> in Perl and SQL, with a few optimized sections
rewritten in C. The
>> current catalogue interface is primarily JavaScript
with XHTML, and
>> the staff client user interface is written in
Mozilla XUL (XML +
>> JavaScript). The user interface for most new staff
client
>> functionality is being built with the Dojo
JavaScript framework.
>> Python is used for the internationalization build
infrastructure and
>> for the new EDI piece.
>>
>> The choice of language in the project largely comes
down to using the
>> most appropriate tool for the job. That's one of
the advantages you
>> get from building an application using a
service-oriented
>> architecture.
>>
>> --
>> Dan Scott
>> Laurentian University
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Check out my library at
http:
//www.librarything.com/profile/timspalding
>
--
Check out my library at http:
//www.librarything.com/profile/timspalding
_______________________________________________
Web4lib mailing list
Web4libwebjunction.org
http://lists.we
bjunction.org/web4lib/
Email Disclaimer: http://www.co.marin.ca.us/nav/misc/EmailDisclaimer.cfm
_______________________________________________
Web4lib mailing list
Web4libwebjunction.org
http://lists.we
bjunction.org/web4lib/
|
|
| Re: Web Languages |
|
2008-07-14 14:55:42 |
The Craigslist data is interesting. Someone with time on
their hands
should do it for various different markets. I suspect SF
leads the
nation, with Cambridge, MA close behind, and that Craigslist
Maine is
asking for Integer Basic programmers.
On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Cloutman, David
<DCloutmanco.marin.ca.us> wrote:
> Tim,
>
> You may be right in the long run, if Ruby follows the
evolutionary path
> of PHP, though I think PHP will adapt, with better
frameworks emerging
> (like Symfony) and native Unicode support in PHP 6. As
far as Java goes,
> I think it is the COBOL of the future. If you know if,
you'll probably
> be able to find a legacy application to support for the
rest of your
> life. And for many things, I still think it is a choice
development
> language. For heavy duty OO programming, I really think
a strongly typed
> language works better, and for that reason I do not see
Ruby or Python
> being Java killers.
>
> I would not totally discount your book sales data. It
certainly
> indicates the level of interest in learning a
technology. However, I
> don't think it is necessarily indicates traction for
any particular
> technology.
>
> My own unscientific metric for languages is searching
the Craigslist job
> listing for the SF Bay Area. (This includes silicon
valley.) For my
> purposes, I look at "internet engineering
jobs" and "web design jobs".
> Here are today's numbers by keyword.
>
> PHP Java Ruby Python
PERL
> internet engineering jobs 110 71 22 19
109
> web design jobs 167 246 85 98
31
>
>
> It will be interesting to see how these numbers shift
when the first ROR
> apps reach legacy status, as is currently happening
with PHP and
> happened a few years back to PERL.
>
> - David
>
> ---
> David Cloutman <dcloutmanco.marin.ca.us>
> Electronic Services Librarian
> Marin County Free Library
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: web4lib-bounceswebjunction.org
> [mailto:web4lib-bounceswebjunction.org] On Behalf
Of Tim Spalding
> Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 7:40 PM
> To: Dan Scott
> Cc: Marcie Pierson; Thomas Dowling; web4libwebjunction.org
> Subject: Re: [Web4lib] RE: Open source support models
>
>
> Incidentally, lest you think I'm being a language snob
or bending the
> evidence to my own ends, I was a Perl hacker once and I
program in
> PHP. I do not know Ruby-or Python for that matter. But
I've tried to
> hire smart, young programmers-for Perl when I was at
Houghton Mifflin
> and for PHP at LibraryThing. The top talent out there
now has mostly
> gravitated to Ruby and Python. I *hate* that, but it is
a fact.
>
> These is not some sort of bull feeling of mine, but are
exhaustively
> documented every year by Tim O'Reilly in his yearly
book-industry
> analyses. PHP, Java and C/C++ have shrunk five years
running. Ruby
> came out of nowhere and is now quite
significant--particularly as Ruby
> programmers seem to be less book-oriented than some
others.
>
> http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/03/state-of
-the-computer-book-mar-23.html
>
> Tim
>
> On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 10:26 PM, Tim Spalding
<timlibrarything.com>
> wrote:
>> Thanks for the correction on Evergreen.
>>
>> I wouldn't say I needed correcting on VuFind,
though. Saying that
>> VuFind isn't mostly PHP because there are chunks of
shell scripting
>> and HTML is like saying that a car isn't made out
of steel and glass
>> because it also has leather seats and pockets of
air. Much the same is
>> true of SQL and, depending on what you're doing
with it, JavaScript.
>> And if you're going to count lines HTML against
lines of code, you
>> should also factor in all the GIF and JPEG images,
not to mention
>> Cascading Style Sheets. This way lies madness.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>> Ha! Fact-checking is readily available for a
few of these projects at
>>> http://www.ohloh.net/projects/evergreen/analyses/latest (for
>>> Evergreen) and h
ttp://www.ohloh.net/projects/10977/analyses/latest
>>> (for VUFind).
>>>
>>> So a correction: the business logic of
Evergreen is written primarily
>>> in Perl and SQL, with a few optimized sections
rewritten in C. The
>>> current catalogue interface is primarily
JavaScript with XHTML, and
>>> the staff client user interface is written in
Mozilla XUL (XML +
>>> JavaScript). The user interface for most new
staff client
>>> functionality is being built with the Dojo
JavaScript framework.
>>> Python is used for the internationalization
build infrastructure and
>>> for the new EDI piece.
>>>
>>> The choice of language in the project largely
comes down to using the
>>> most appropriate tool for the job. That's one
of the advantages you
>>> get from building an application using a
service-oriented
>>> architecture.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dan Scott
>>> Laurentian University
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Check out my library at
> http:
//www.librarything.com/profile/timspalding
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Check out my library at http:
//www.librarything.com/profile/timspalding
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Web4lib mailing list
> Web4libwebjunction.org
> http://lists.we
bjunction.org/web4lib/
>
>
> Email Disclaimer: http://www.co.marin.ca.us/nav/misc/EmailDisclaimer.cfm
>
>
--
Check out my library at http:
//www.librarything.com/profile/timspalding
_______________________________________________
Web4lib mailing list
Web4libwebjunction.org
http://lists.we
bjunction.org/web4lib/
|
|
| RE: Web Languages |
|
2008-07-14 15:01:12 |
I transposed a couple of rows there, so some of the numbers
for design
are actually for engineering, and vice versa. These are the
correct
figures.
PHP Java Ruby Python
PERL
internet engineering jobs 167 246 85 98
109
web design jobs 110 71 22 19
31
---
David Cloutman <dcloutmanco.marin.ca.us>
Electronic Services Librarian
Marin County Free Library
-----Original Message-----
From: web4lib-bounceswebjunction.org
[mailto:web4lib-bounceswebjunction.org] On Behalf Of Cloutman,
David
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 12:46 PM
To: Tim Spalding; Dan Scott
Cc: web4libwebjunction.org
Subject: [Web4lib] Web Languages
Tim,
You may be right in the long run, if Ruby follows the
evolutionary path
of PHP, though I think PHP will adapt, with better
frameworks emerging
(like Symfony) and native Unicode support in PHP 6. As far
as Java goes,
I think it is the COBOL of the future. If you know if,
you'll probably
be able to find a legacy application to support for the rest
of your
life. And for many things, I still think it is a choice
development
language. For heavy duty OO programming, I really think a
strongly typed
language works better, and for that reason I do not see Ruby
or Python
being Java killers.
I would not totally discount your book sales data. It
certainly
indicates the level of interest in learning a technology.
However, I
don't think it is necessarily indicates traction for any
particular
technology.
My own unscientific metric for languages is searching the
Craigslist job
listing for the SF Bay Area. (This includes silicon valley.)
For my
purposes, I look at "internet engineering jobs"
and "web design jobs".
Here are today's numbers by keyword.
PHP Java Ruby Python
PERL
internet engineering jobs 110 71 22 19
109
web design jobs 167 246 85 98 31
It will be interesting to see how these numbers shift when
the first ROR
apps reach legacy status, as is currently happening with PHP
and
happened a few years back to PERL.
- David
---
David Cloutman <dcloutmanco.marin.ca.us>
Electronic Services Librarian
Marin County Free Library
-----Original Message-----
From: web4lib-bounceswebjunction.org
[mailto:web4lib-bounceswebjunction.org] On Behalf Of Tim
Spalding
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 7:40 PM
To: Dan Scott
Cc: Marcie Pierson; Thomas Dowling; web4libwebjunction.org
Subject: Re: [Web4lib] RE: Open source support models
Incidentally, lest you think I'm being a language snob or
bending the
evidence to my own ends, I was a Perl hacker once and I
program in
PHP. I do not know Ruby-or Python for that matter. But I've
tried to
hire smart, young programmers-for Perl when I was at
Houghton Mifflin
and for PHP at LibraryThing. The top talent out there now
has mostly
gravitated to Ruby and Python. I *hate* that, but it is a
fact.
These is not some sort of bull feeling of mine, but are
exhaustively
documented every year by Tim O'Reilly in his yearly
book-industry
analyses. PHP, Java and C/C++ have shrunk five years
running. Ruby
came out of nowhere and is now quite
significant--particularly as Ruby
programmers seem to be less book-oriented than some others.
http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/03/state-of
-the-computer-book-mar-23.html
Tim
On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 10:26 PM, Tim Spalding <timlibrarything.com>
wrote:
> Thanks for the correction on Evergreen.
>
> I wouldn't say I needed correcting on VuFind, though.
Saying that
> VuFind isn't mostly PHP because there are chunks of
shell scripting
> and HTML is like saying that a car isn't made out of
steel and glass
> because it also has leather seats and pockets of air.
Much the same is
> true of SQL and, depending on what you're doing with
it, JavaScript.
> And if you're going to count lines HTML against lines
of code, you
> should also factor in all the GIF and JPEG images, not
to mention
> Cascading Style Sheets. This way lies madness.
>
> Tim
>
>> Ha! Fact-checking is readily available for a few of
these projects at
>> http://www.ohloh.net/projects/evergreen/analyses/latest (for
>> Evergreen) and h
ttp://www.ohloh.net/projects/10977/analyses/latest
>> (for VUFind).
>>
>> So a correction: the business logic of Evergreen is
written primarily
>> in Perl and SQL, with a few optimized sections
rewritten in C. The
>> current catalogue interface is primarily JavaScript
with XHTML, and
>> the staff client user interface is written in
Mozilla XUL (XML +
>> JavaScript). The user interface for most new staff
client
>> functionality is being built with the Dojo
JavaScript framework.
>> Python is used for the internationalization build
infrastructure and
>> for the new EDI piece.
>>
>> The choice of language in the project largely comes
down to using the
>> most appropriate tool for the job. That's one of
the advantages you
>> get from building an application using a
service-oriented
>> architecture.
>>
>> --
>> Dan Scott
>> Laurentian University
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Check out my library at
http:
//www.librarything.com/profile/timspalding
>
--
Check out my library at http:
//www.librarything.com/profile/timspalding
_______________________________________________
Web4lib mailing list
Web4libwebjunction.org
http://lists.we
bjunction.org/web4lib/
Email Disclaimer: http://www.co.marin.ca.us/nav/misc/EmailDisclaimer.cfm
_______________________________________________
Web4lib mailing list
Web4libwebjunction.org
http://lists.we
bjunction.org/web4lib/
_______________________________________________
Web4lib mailing list
Web4libwebjunction.org
http://lists.we
bjunction.org/web4lib/
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