Gracefully degrades to..?

 One possible, standards-compliant way to degrade gracefully
is to use
CSS-only layouts for your site, and allow users to switch
the stylesheet
off.  If HTML is left only for markup, (i.e. tables are not
used for
layout, unordered lists are used for menus, etc.), your site
will be
functional, if not pretty, for your users.

Possible, but not necessarily realistic given the wide range
of coding
competencies out there.

-----Original Message-----
From: web4lib-bounceswebjunction.org
[mailto:web4lib-bounceswebjunction.org] On Behalf Of Drew, Bill
Sent: May 24, 2006 8:54 AM
To: kgsbluehighways.com; web4libwebjunction.org
Subject: RE: [Web4lib] Gracefully degrades to..?

I think all you need to do is have the validation graphic on
your
webpages.  Considering how easy it is to get a browser that
will work up
to standards any more, there is no need nor should anyone
label a page
to say it works best with  a specific browser.  The help
documents could
make suggestions for the best version number of browsers to
use.

Wilfred (Bill) Drew
E-mail: mailto:drewwemorrisville.edu
AOL Instant Messenger:BillDrew4
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Benjamin
Franklin)
 
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Can you recommend a good book on using CSS for positioning
that DOES degrade
gracefully? I've really avoided using CSS-based layout
myself because I've
seen it degrade horribly so many times, and I don't want to
take a chance on
my users seeing all the text piled on top of each other.


On 5/24/06, Hankinson, Andrew <HankiAparl.gc.ca> wrote:
>
> One possible, standards-compliant way to degrade
gracefully is to use
> CSS-only layouts for your site, and allow users to
switch the stylesheet
> off.  If HTML is left only for markup, (i.e. tables are
not used for
> layout, unordered lists are used for menus, etc.), your
site will be
> functional, if not pretty, for your users.
>
> Possible, but not necessarily realistic given the wide
range of coding
> competencies out there.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: web4lib-bounceswebjunction.org
> [mailto:web4lib-bounceswebjunction.org] On Behalf
Of Drew, Bill
> Sent: May 24, 2006 8:54 AM
> To: kgsbluehighways.com; web4libwebjunction.org
> Subject: RE: [Web4lib] Gracefully degrades to..?
>
> I think all you need to do is have the validation
graphic on your
> webpages.  Considering how easy it is to get a browser
that will work up
> to standards any more, there is no need nor should
anyone label a page
> to say it works best with  a specific browser.  The
help documents could
> make suggestions for the best version number of
browsers to use.
>
> Wilfred (Bill) Drew
> E-mail: mailto:drewwemorrisville.edu
> AOL Instant Messenger:BillDrew4
> "They that can give up essential liberty to
obtain a little temporary
> safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
(Benjamin Franklin)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Web4lib mailing list
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> http://lists.we
bjunction.org/web4lib/
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> Web4libwebjunction.org
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bjunction.org/web4lib/
>
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Jennifer Heise writes:
 > Can you recommend a good book on using CSS for
positioning that
 > DOES degrade gracefully? I've really avoided using
CSS-based layout
 > myself because I've seen it degrade horribly so many
times, and I
 > don't want to take a chance on my users seeing all
the text piled
 > on top of each other.

I quite agree.  I know that people go on about how great it
is that
you can use CSS for layout, but I've never seen the appeal,
and I
prefer to use tables for layout and CSS for, well, style. 
The result
of course is that my sites _do_ degrade gracefully -- much
more
gracefully that CSS-layout sides do on browsers that don't
implement
CSS properly (which is not rare).

So I think you should quietly ignore the advice of the
CSS-layout
mafia, and lay your pages out using good old-fashioned
tables, at
least for the next few years.

 _/|_	
____________________________________________________________
_______
/o ) \/  Mike Taylor  <mikemiketaylor.org.uk>  http://www.miketaylor.or
g.uk
)_v__/\  Live fast, Die old.

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CSS layout mafia? I find it hard to picture Thomas Dowling
taking a  
baseball bat to anyone's kneecaps over their lack of CSS
use. But  
then, I've been wrong before.

I find it surprising to look at the calendar and note that
we are  
well into 2006 and we have people advocating the use of
tables for  
formatting non-tabular information. The use of tables for
layout was  
a kludge to get around the lack of a real layout mechanism.
CSS is  
that mechanism. To advocate a kludge when a better, more
standards- 
compliant, and very effective solution is available is,
well, backward.

I'm not saying that everyone should run out and change all
their  
pages that currently use tables for layout -- lord knows I
no doubt  
have many such legacy pages myself. But I really don't
think anyone  
can justify creating new content using tables for layout
given the  
wide implementation of browsers with decent CSS support.

Having said that, I must caution that you can do more damage
with bad  
CSS than you can with bad HTML, so how it is implemented is
key. But  
done well, your web pages will never look cleaner, easier to
 
understand and edit, and be compliant with the latest
standards.  
What's not to like about that?
Roy

On May 24, 2006, at 9:43 AM, Mike Taylor wrote:

> Jennifer Heise writes:
>> Can you recommend a good book on using CSS for
positioning that
>> DOES degrade gracefully? I've really avoided using
CSS-based layout
>> myself because I've seen it degrade horribly so
many times, and I
>> don't want to take a chance on my users seeing all
the text piled
>> on top of each other.
>
> I quite agree.  I know that people go on about how
great it is that
> you can use CSS for layout, but I've never seen the
appeal, and I
> prefer to use tables for layout and CSS for, well,
style.  The result
> of course is that my sites _do_ degrade gracefully --
much more
> gracefully that CSS-layout sides do on browsers that
don't implement
> CSS properly (which is not rare).
>
> So I think you should quietly ignore the advice of the
CSS-layout
> mafia, and lay your pages out using good old-fashioned
tables, at
> least for the next few years.
>
>  _/|_	  
>
____________________________________________________________
_______
> /o ) \/  Mike Taylor  <mikemiketaylor.org.uk> 
http:// 
> www.miketaylor.org.uk
> )_v__/\  Live fast, Die old.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Web4lib mailing list
> Web4libwebjunction.org
> http://lists.we
bjunction.org/web4lib/
>

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On Wed, 24 May 2006, Mike Taylor wrote:

> Jennifer Heise writes:
> > Can you recommend a good book on using CSS for
positioning that
> > DOES degrade gracefully? I've really avoided
using CSS-based layout
> > myself because I've seen it degrade horribly so
many times, and I
> > don't want to take a chance on my users seeing
all the text piled
> > on top of each other.
>
> I quite agree.  I know that people go on about how
great it is that
> you can use CSS for layout, but I've never seen the
appeal, and I
> prefer to use tables for layout and CSS for, well,
style.  The result
> of course is that my sites _do_ degrade gracefully --
much more
> gracefully that CSS-layout sides do on browsers that
don't implement
> CSS properly (which is not rare).
>
> So I think you should quietly ignore the advice of the
CSS-layout
> mafia, and lay your pages out using good old-fashioned
tables, at
> least for the next few years.

And when you need to change layout dynamically?  It's much
more of a pain 
to do it when you have a table-based layout.  Anyone who's
had to do 
post-processing on a table-layout system (think OPAC) will
know the pains 
of having to look in the fourth cell of the fifth table to
get some 
information.

Not to mention at the least those that might want to change
your website 
to make it better suited for themselves.  Are there many of
us?  Probably 
not.  Might we be able to come up with better designs if we
can hook 
things into the process?  Maybe.

I've also mentioned this before, but I'll say it again. 
I've never, ever 
seen anyone suggest that css layout is easier or
"great".  It's got some 
significant annoyances.  One can tell it is a standard
created before two 
actual implementations existed.  It's still better than
tables though.

Jon Gorman
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On Wed, 24 May 2006, Jennifer Heise wrote:

> Can you recommend a good book on using CSS for
positioning that DOES degrade
> gracefully? I've really avoided using CSS-based layout
myself because I've
> seen it degrade horribly so many times, and I don't
want to take a chance on
> my users seeing all the text piled on top of each
other.
>


It's hard to recommend a book.  I haven't read too many on
CSS.  (Well, 
next to none).  However, there are many good online
resources for this 
type of design.  A List Apart (ALA) http://alistapart.com/
frequently has 
articles on css layouts.  It's where many current layout
techniques were 
developed for CSS.

CSS Zen garden (http://www.csszengarden.
com/) shows the same sites with 
many different designs.  The site itself degrades pretty
nicely as well. 
They have book out but I've only skimmed it.  Didn't seem
to have much 
about the nitty-gritty but more general design ideas.


Those are the ones I can think of off hand.  Surf around
various websites 
on occasion and disable the CSS and see what happens.


Jon Gorman
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And for those who want to read about this elsewhere, here is
a good
read:

Aaron Weiss, "The Web Designer's Dilemma: When
Standards and Practice
Diverge," netWorker 10.1 (March 2006), 18-25. (ISSN: 
1091-3556). 

Weiss offers good points to both sides of the argument.

Bret Parker, Senior Applications Programmer Analyst (MLIS)
Stockton-San Joaquin County Public Library
City of Stockton (California)
bret.parkerci.stockton.ca.us
(209) 937-7148

http://www.stockton.lib
.ca.us


>>> Mike Taylor <mikemiketaylor.org.uk>
5/24/2006 9:43 AM >>>
Jennifer Heise writes:
 > Can you recommend a good book on using CSS for
positioning that
 > DOES degrade gracefully? I've really avoided using
CSS-based layout
 > myself because I've seen it degrade horribly so many
times, and I
 > don't want to take a chance on my users seeing all
the text piled
 > on top of each other.

I quite agree.  I know that people go on about how great it
is that
you can use CSS for layout, but I've never seen the appeal,
and I
prefer to use tables for layout and CSS for, well, style. 
The result
of course is that my sites _do_ degrade gracefully -- much
more
gracefully that CSS-layout sides do on browsers that don't
implement
CSS properly (which is not rare).

So I think you should quietly ignore the advice of the
CSS-layout
mafia, and lay your pages out using good old-fashioned
tables, at
least for the next few years.

 _/|_	
____________________________________________________________
_______
/o ) \/  Mike Taylor  <mikemiketaylor.org.uk> 
http://www.miketaylor.or
g.uk 
)_v__/\  Live fast, Die old.

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Web4lib mailing list
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bjunction.org/web4lib/
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bjunction.org/web4lib/

Roy Tennant wrote:
>I find it surprising to look at the calendar and note
that
>we are well into 2006 and we have people advocating the
use
>of tables for formatting non-tabular information. The
use of
>tables for layout was a kludge to get around the lack of
a
>real layout mechanism. CSS is that mechanism.

Well said Roy.

A properly designed website will be able to display in ANY
browser.
Whether it supports CSS or not.  My strategy has been to use
and import
statement for the CSS, so those browsers like the ancient
Netscape 4
don't see it, and display the perfectly useable unstyled
markup.


> Jennifer Heise writes:
>> Can you recommend a good book on using CSS for
positioning that DOES 
>> degrade gracefully?

Jennifer, I would recommend Jeffrey Zeldman's
"Designing with Web
Standards."  According to Amazon, there is a second
edition coming out
in July.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0321385
551/qid=1148491684/103-3421838-3
617416


--
Jonathan Bloy
Web Services Librarian
Edgewood College
Madison, Wisconsin
http://library.edgewood.e
du
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>
> CSS Zen garden (http://www.csszengarden.
com/) shows the same sites with
> many different designs.  The site itself degrades
pretty nicely as well.
> They have book out but I've only skimmed it.  Didn't
seem to have much
> about the nitty-gritty but more general design ideas.


If you haven't checked out CSS Zen Garden, do so.

This remarkable site lets you view the same content under
various layouts.
The variations are so extreme you'd swear these are not the
same site.  It
dramatically demonstrates the power of CSS.  For instance,
click here:

http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/194/194.css&am
p;page=0

Now click here, maybe in a side-by-side window:

http
://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=189/189.css

Only the CSS varies between the two.

The CSS congoscente that I know say the companion book is
good.

/rich
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> http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/194/194.css&am
p;page=0
>
> Now click here, maybe in a side-by-side window:
>
> http
://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=189/189.css
>
> Only the CSS varies between the two.

The layout difference here is more subtle then the changes
in images 
and might be missed.  The 
"sidebar" in one design is on the left, on the
other the right.


Another variation is:

http
://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=193/193.css

You'll notice the three column layout as opposed to the
other pages two 
column layout.

It's a good site for poking around.

While I'm thinking about it, there's also 
http://w
ww.strangebanana.com/generator.aspx.

It randomly creates styling and layout information via css. 
Notice the 
possibilities with this approach.  If you know a few styles
you kinda like 
you could create code to create the css and try different
layouts (given 
good markup in the first place) by create a process to do
slight random 
changes.

I know someone had "evolution" approach to the
css design but I can't 
remember where I saw it.  Of course, I can't remember if it
was an actual 
webpage/software released to the world or something I or one
of my friends 
was tinkering with ;).

The latest version of the web developer plugin on these
websites will also 
help greatly.  Disable the css, edit it, replace it with
your own 
stylesheets etc.



Jonathan T. Gorman
Visiting Research Information Specialist
University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana
216 Main Library - MC522
1408 West Gregory Drive
Urbana, IL 61801
Phone: (217) 244-4688


On Wed, 24 May 2006, Richard Wiggins wrote:

>> 
>> CSS Zen garden (http://www.csszengarden.
com/) shows the same sites with
>> many different designs.  The site itself degrades
pretty nicely as well.
>> They have book out but I've only skimmed it. 
Didn't seem to have much
>> about the nitty-gritty but more general design
ideas.
>
>
> If you haven't checked out CSS Zen Garden, do so.
>
> This remarkable site lets you view the same content
under various layouts.
> The variations are so extreme you'd swear these are
not the same site.  It
> dramatically demonstrates the power of CSS.  For
instance, click here:
>
>
> The CSS congoscente that I know say the companion book
is good.
>
> /rich
> _______________________________________________
> Web4lib mailing list
> Web4libwebjunction.org
> http://lists.we
bjunction.org/web4lib/
>
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