Workflow with LCMS

Hi,

just for me to make sure that I understand, what I have
to do to get fotos printed with intended colors:

I am working on my photos (usually with GIMP) on a
calibrated display (NEC2180 + Eye-One). When I edited
a photo to my pleasure, I guess this is what I will
have to do:

- Save the image with GIMP (as usual)
- Use jpegicc or tifficc, using my monitor profile
  as input profile and the printer profile (given
  by my print service provider) as output profile.
- send the image to the print service

Is this correct? Or would I just embed my own
monitor profile? Then the print service could
convert to his own profile and send the result
to the printer?

Am I missing something?

How would I prepare photos for prints on a certain
kind of paper? Or is this always left to the printer-
driver?

Cheers, Olaf

-- 
Olaf Gellert                                            _ -
__o
  gellertarasca.de                                    _-
_<,_
      http://www.arasca.de/      
                     - (_)/ (_)
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Olaf,

all, what you showed in your email, can be done on the
commandline. But 
most users prefere GUI's for such tasks. Your calibration
is a good start. 

Why not using a open source GUI application, which supports
colour 
management:
http://www.behrmann.name/index.
php?option=com_weblinks&catid=69&Itemid=95
or probably
h
ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_color_management

With such you can work on a profiled image
(sRGB?/AdobeRGB/L-StarRGB ...) 
and watch with your monitor profile colour corrected on the
fly. Printout 
is done with your print profile applied before sending to
your local 
printer. 

For a remote print service your application should support
embedding of 
profiles during saving the image.

Ask your print service to which colour space to convert. If
they dont can 
say which colour space, they probably dont support colour
management and 
you will probably get more or less a pleasing product not a
accurate one.
Maybe this satisfies you and thats ok.

For accurate matching check the Scribus wiki about this
toppic:
http://doc
s.scribus.net/index.php?page=cms

On what operating system does you work? This would help to
give a more 
specific suggestion.

regards
Kai-Uwe Behrmann
                                + development for color
management 
                                + imaging / panoramas
                                + email: ku.bgmx.de
                                + http://www.behrmann.name


Am 05.08.06, 00:35 +0200 schrieb Olaf Gellert:

> Hi,
> 
> just for me to make sure that I understand, what I have
> to do to get fotos printed with intended colors:
> 
> I am working on my photos (usually with GIMP) on a
> calibrated display (NEC2180 + Eye-One). When I edited
> a photo to my pleasure, I guess this is what I will
> have to do:
> 
> - Save the image with GIMP (as usual)
> - Use jpegicc or tifficc, using my monitor profile
>   as input profile and the printer profile (given
>   by my print service provider) as output profile.
> - send the image to the print service
> 
> Is this correct? Or would I just embed my own
> monitor profile? Then the print service could
> convert to his own profile and send the result
> to the printer?
> 
> Am I missing something?
> 
> How would I prepare photos for prints on a certain
> kind of paper? Or is this always left to the printer-
> driver?
> 
> Cheers, Olaf
> 
> -- 
> Olaf Gellert                                           
_ - __o
>   gellertarasca.de                                 
  _- _<,_
>       http://www.arasca.de/      
                     - (_)/ (_)
>
------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>  Due to circumstances beyond your control
>                   you are master of your fate &
captain of your soul.
>
------------------------------------------------------------
----------
> 

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On Saturday 05 August 2006 00:35, Olaf Gellert wrote:

[I'ill try to answer you, according to what I understand
about color 
management. I may do some mistakes, so please, wait for a
guru answer ;o). 
My answer is an exercise to me. My apologizes if there are
mistakes].

> I am working on my photos (usually with GIMP) on a
> calibrated display (NEC2180 + Eye-One).

You are using a calibrated display, but are you using
Gimp-2.3, which 
support ICC profiles for your display?

> - Save the image with GIMP (as usual)
> - Use jpegicc or tifficc, using my monitor profile
>   as input profile and the printer profile (given
>   by my print service provider) as output profile.
> - send the image to the print service

If you work with Gimp-2.3, then the image is edited in sRGB
colorspace, but 
correctly displayed in your monitor colorspace. So, source
profile should 
be sRGB, and destination profile the printer one.

If you are not using Gimp-2.3, then, yes, I think your are
right, and you 
have to use the monitor profile as source profile.

> Is this correct? Or would I just embed my own
> monitor profile? Then the print service could
> convert to his own profile and send the result
> to the printer?

Well, you have to ask your printer service, because they may
not all work 
the same way. They may or not read embedded profiles.
Usually, they assume 
your image is in sRGB colorspace. Anyway, if you embedded
you monitor 
profile, you file must be in that colorspace.

In case you are using Gimp-2.3 with display profile support,
I think you 
have nothing to do if print service wait for sRGB images. If
you are using 
Gimp-2.2, then use your monitor as source profile, but use
sRGB as 
destination profile.

> How would I prepare photos for prints on a certain
> kind of paper? Or is this always left to the printer-
> driver?

A good print service should have a profile for each paper.
Again, better to 
ask them.

Print services often give their ICC profile; this is usefull
to do soft 
proofing, ie check on your monitor what your print will look
like. 
Gimp-2.3 can do that  But
remember that the monitor can't show you all 
printer colors, and can display colors printer can't print.
But the look 
will be very close. For example, you will see that there is
not pure 
black; inkjet printers have better black than minilabs.

Hope this helps.

-- 
   Frédéric

   http://www.gbiloba.org
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On Saturday 05 August 2006 00:19, Frédéric wrote:
> On Saturday 05 August 2006 00:35, Olaf Gellert wrote:
>
> [I'ill try to answer you, according to what I
understand about color
> management. I may do some mistakes, so please, wait for
a guru answer ;o).
> My answer is an exercise to me. My apologizes if there
are mistakes].
>
> > I am working on my photos (usually with GIMP) on a
> > calibrated display (NEC2180 + Eye-One).
>
> You are using a calibrated display, but are you using
Gimp-2.3, which
> support ICC profiles for your display?
>
> > - Save the image with GIMP (as usual)
> > - Use jpegicc or tifficc, using my monitor profile
> >   as input profile and the printer profile (given
> >   by my print service provider) as output profile.
> > - send the image to the print service
>
> If you work with Gimp-2.3, then the image is edited in
sRGB colorspace, but
> correctly displayed in your monitor colorspace. So,
source profile should
> be sRGB, and destination profile the printer one.

I am not so sure that images in GIMP are "edited in
sRGB colorspace" .  I do 
know that versions of GIMP before 2.3 that GIMP were totally
color management 
dumb and just assumed that all images were in the same
unknown (unspecified) 
color space.  In other words GIMP has always edited the
image in what ever 
color space the image was in.  All it does is manipulate the
RGB values of 
the image regardless of what color space the image has.  If
the image is an 
sRGB image then the image is being edited in sRGB but if the
image is in the 
ProPhotoRGB color space then it is not being edited in sRGB.

>
> If you are not using Gimp-2.3, then, yes, I think your
are right, and you
> have to use the monitor profile as source profile.

No this is not correct.  You need to use whatever color
space is correct for 
the image.  If you captured the image with a camera or
scanner then you need 
to use a profile for that camera/scanner to either work
directly in that 
color space or to convert the image from that color space to
some standard 
working color space of your choice such as AdobeRGB,
ProPhotoRGB, BetaRGB....  
There are two open source options for creating
camera/scanner profiles that I 
know of - AgryllCMS and LProf.  Both have world class
algorithms for creating 
these profiles and both run on *nix, Windows and Mac.  LProf
is easier to use 
and supports more input image file formats but AgryllCMS
support hardware 
based monitor profiling and printer profiling.   So all you
need is a good 
IT8.7 target (I recommend those from Wolf Faust) and a
little time and effort 
and you can create excellent custom profiles for your camera
and/or scanner.   

If you do use a standard working color space avoid sRGB as
it is simply too 
small to handle the gamut/dynamic range of most source
material.   This is 
particularly true for DSRL cameras where you process the raw
data and for 
high dynamic range film scanners.  Friends don't let
friends use sRGB.

To use your profiles in GIMP 2.3.x (I think the last
development snap shot is 
2.3.10) you need to trick it into doing the correct thing
because the color 
management stuff is still not fully implemented.  The trick
is to set File => 
Preferences => Color Management => RGB Profile to
whatever profile is correct 
for your image.  Then set  File => Preferences =>
Color Management => Monitor 
Profile to the monitor profile that you created using your
i1 and it's 
software.  At that point you will have a color managed
display but you have 
to remember that GIMP currently does not know about or use
embedded profiles 
and you have to manually set the correct profile in the RGB
Profile field in 
the CM preferences.

I have been using CinePaint more lately.  It has full CM
awareness (it knows 
how to use embedded profiles for example) and will handle
images with higher 
bit depths (16, 32 bits/channel as well as images with float
and double 
values).   GIMP is currently limited to 8 bits/channel.  The
disadvantage of 
CinePaint is that it's tool set is somewhat limited.  But
it does have all of 
the basic tools you need for most things and if your work
flow consists of 
making basic image adjustments (color balance, contrast,
brightness, curves, 
levels...) and cropping then it will do the job very nicely.

I always recommend that those new to CM have a look at
Norman Koren's web site 
http
://www.normankoren.com/color_management.html .  It has
lots of 
introductory material as well as lots of advanced
information about how all 
of this should work.   He has diagrams of the basic CM
workflow that are very 
helpful to new CM users for example. The information is
somewhat Windows and 
commercial software centric so if you are using open source
software or are 
not on Windows you will have to take this into account.  
But in general the 
information is presented in a very accessible way.

Hal

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On Saturday 05 August 2006 18:33, Hal V. Engel wrote:

> I am not so sure that images in GIMP are "edited
in sRGB colorspace".

You are right: I forgot that Gimp let the user choose
working colorspace... 
But as you explain later, Gimp is not able to read embedded
profiles. So 
you have to choose the working colorspace, which much match
the colorspace 
of the image. Usually, sRGB, as most DSRL cameras output
files in this 
colorspace.

I hope that the final 2.4 version will handle all the
conversions between 
colorspaces, the embedded profiles, and all problems it can
produce when 
loading image with different profiles...

> > If you are not using Gimp-2.3, then, yes, I think
your are right, and
> > you have to use the monitor profile as source
profile.
>
> No this is not correct.  You need to use whatever color
space is correct
> for the image.  If you captured the image with a camera
or scanner then
> you need to use a profile for that camera/scanner to
either work
> directly in that color space or to convert the image
from that color
> space to some standard working color space of your
choice such as
> AdobeRGB, ProPhotoRGB, BetaRGB....

But what to do when using an application which doesn't
support profiles 
(here, not using Gimp-2.3) ? Then, all corrections you are
going to do 
will bring your image in the monitor colorspace, because you
will try to 
have this image looking good on the monitor. Am I wrong ?
This case is not 
very clear to me...

> If you do use a standard working color space avoid sRGB
as it is simply
> too small to handle the gamut/dynamic range of most
source material.  
> This is particularly true for DSRL cameras where you
process the raw
> data and for high dynamic range film scanners.  Friends
don't let
> friends use sRGB.

Yes, it is true. And even when I don't use RAW files, my
Canon 20D let me 
output jpeg in AdobeRGB colorspace 

> I have been using CinePaint more lately.  It has full
CM awareness (it
> knows how to use embedded profiles for example) and
will handle images
> with higher bit depths (16, 32 bits/channel as well as
images with float
> and double values).   GIMP is currently limited to 8
bits/channel.  The
> disadvantage of CinePaint is that it's tool set is
somewhat limited. 
> But it does have all of the basic tools you need for
most things and if
> your work flow consists of making basic image
adjustments (color
> balance, contrast, brightness, curves, levels...) and
cropping then it
> will do the job very nicely.

When processing RAW files, all color corections are made in
a linear space, 
on the 12bits/channel. So, once the tiff/jepg file is
produced, you only 
need to use geometric tools in Gimp. It can be done without
to much 
damages, even in 8bits.

-- 
   Frédéric

   http://www.gbiloba.org
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Hi All,

I want a color managed environment on my Linux system, so I
can see
what my photographs are really going to look like.
Unfortunately, while
I'm tolerably competent in general Linux, I'm totally new
to color
management I'm pretty sure that lcms is going to be part of
what I
need, but I suspect there will be other things I need too,
but I don't
really even know which man pages or whatever to start with.

Currently I have Linux, GIMP, Nikon D50 camera, ufraw,
gutenprint, an
ICC profile for my monitor (generated with a hardware
profiling tool
under windoze), an Epson R200 printer with a custom profile
for the
ink/paper combination I'm using (generated by the ink
manufacturer).

So far everything is entirely non-color managed. I just use
ufraw to
read .nef files from the camera into GIMP and hope for the
best. It's
not a disaster so long as I used a custom white balance and
don't try
to mess with the color at all. However, I know there should
be more;
how do I tie this together? Where do I start reading?

Many thanks in advance for any pointers you can offer.

"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers.
You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions."
— Naguib Mahfouz

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On Saturday 05 August 2006 10:20, Frédéric wrote:
> On Saturday 05 August 2006 18:33, Hal V. Engel wrote:
> > I am not so sure that images in GIMP are
"edited in sRGB colorspace".
>
> You are right: I forgot that Gimp let the user choose
working colorspace...
> But as you explain later, Gimp is not able to read
embedded profiles. So
> you have to choose the working colorspace, which much
match the colorspace
> of the image. Usually, sRGB, as most DSRL cameras
output files in this
> colorspace.

Some do some don't and some also let you select from
several that are used by 
the built in camera image processing.  sRGB and AdobeRGB are
common.  If you 
have this option and you are using in camera image
processing then use 
AdobeRGB has it has about a 45% larger gamut than sRGB.

When you process from RAW files using tools that are not
from the camera 
vendor you will be getting images that are in the devices
unique color space.  
This color space can be much larger than even AdobeRGB.  My
D70 for example 
when processed through UFRAW has a color space that is
almost exactly the 
same size and shape as BetaRGB.  BetaRGB has a gamut that is
almost twice as 
large as sRGB (69% of Lab vs. 35% of Lab).  So this gives
you an idea of how 
much information is lost when one of these images is
processed into an sRGB 
image.   This is less of an issue with consumer level
digicams since the much 
smaller sensor sites also have a much smaller gamut/dynamic
range.

>
> I hope that the final 2.4 version will handle all the
conversions between
> colorspaces, the embedded profiles, and all problems it
can produce when
> loading image with different profiles...

I agree.  Like most open source software I think the issue
is one of manpower.  
GIMP simply needs to have someone with the time and
inclination to do this 
work.
>
> > > If you are not using Gimp-2.3, then, yes, I
think your are right, and
> > > you have to use the monitor profile as source
profile.
> >
> > No this is not correct.  You need to use whatever
color space is correct
> > for the image.  If you captured the image with a
camera or scanner then
> > you need to use a profile for that camera/scanner
to either work
> > directly in that color space or to convert the
image from that color
> > space to some standard working color space of your
choice such as
> > AdobeRGB, ProPhotoRGB, BetaRGB....
>
> But what to do when using an application which doesn't
support profiles
> (here, not using Gimp-2.3) ? Then, all corrections you
are going to do
> will bring your image in the monitor colorspace,
because you will try to
> have this image looking good on the monitor. Am I wrong
? This case is not
> very clear to me...

Do you want your images to end up in your monitors color
space?  I would try 
to avoid this and in fact would consider this to be very
damaging to the 
image.  There are a number of alternatives from using the
GIMP development 
branch to using CinePaint that will allow you to avoid this.

>
> > If you do use a standard working color space avoid
sRGB as it is simply
> > too small to handle the gamut/dynamic range of
most source material.
> > This is particularly true for DSRL cameras where
you process the raw
> > data and for high dynamic range film scanners. 
Friends don't let
> > friends use sRGB.
>
> Yes, it is true. And even when I don't use RAW files,
my Canon 20D let me
> output jpeg in AdobeRGB colorspace 

AdobeRGB is way better than sRGB.  For your typical DSLR you
will maintain the 
gamut of about 96% of the image and only lose or change the
color information 
of about 4% of the image.  The loses are small enough that
under most 
circumstances you will not notice.  

>
> > I have been using CinePaint more lately.  It has
full CM awareness (it
> > knows how to use embedded profiles for example)
and will handle images
> > with higher bit depths (16, 32 bits/channel as
well as images with float
> > and double values).   GIMP is currently limited to
8 bits/channel.  The
> > disadvantage of CinePaint is that it's tool set
is somewhat limited.
> > But it does have all of the basic tools you need
for most things and if
> > your work flow consists of making basic image
adjustments (color
> > balance, contrast, brightness, curves, levels...)
and cropping then it
> > will do the job very nicely.
>
> When processing RAW files, all color corections are
made in a linear space,
> on the 12bits/channel. So, once the tiff/jepg file is
produced, you only
> need to use geometric tools in Gimp. It can be done
without to much
> damages, even in 8bits.

By that time you the damage has already been done.  I always
process my RAW 
images down to 16 bit/channel output and I alway try to
preserve as much of 
the information in the photo as possible.

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--- Andreas Yankopolus <andreasyank.to> wrote:

> Simon,
> 
> > However, I know there should be more; how do I tie
this together?  
> > Where do I start reading?
> 
> I'd highly recommend ordering a copy of Real World
Color Management.
> 
> In the mean time, you'll likely find the following
pages extremely  
> helpful:
> 
> http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/color
-management1.htm

Thanks Andreas,

I was perhaps a little too vague. I understand, at least at
a basic
level, what color management is about, why we need it and so
forth. My
question was more about how to go about making this happen
in a
Linux/ufraw/GIMP environment.

Do I somehow get my profile attached to my monitor under X
Windows?
That would presumably correct my display system and make all
output of
any image "correct" regardless of the tool used.
But I don't know if X
allows that, though I've found some stuff that hints that
it might or
at least folks have given it some thought.

If I don't correct the entire display, then presumably I
have to have
the corrections applied in each individual image editing
program. GIMP
2.3 seems to suggest that it has some color management
beginnings, but
I have so far failed to work out how I do that. (This, if
it's the
right way to go, is properly a question for the GIMP lists,
of course).

How about output? I looked at the gutenprint information,
and it seems
to suggest that I have to use a profile created through
gutenprint,
rather than a generic one (in otherwords, I don't use a
normal profile
for the device, I need what amounts to a composite profile
for the
device and gutenprint in combination).

Anyway, I'm sure I need much information from other places,
but this
seems like a list that probably has the wisest and most
broadly
educated folks on it, so I was hoping to get some early
pointers. What
tools should I be using? What might still not be possible?
Can I even
use the hardware generated profile for my monitor, given
that it was
created under windoze (dual boot, so the same physical
hardware).

Does that make more sense as a question? Still rather broad
based, but
that's my problem, where to start!

Thanks again for your help,
Simon


"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers.
You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions."
— Naguib Mahfouz

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On Saturday 05 August 2006 10:34, Simon Roberts wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I want a color managed environment on my Linux system,
so I can see
> what my photographs are really going to look like.
Unfortunately, while
> I'm tolerably competent in general Linux, I'm totally
new to color
> management I'm pretty sure that lcms is going to be
part of what I
> need, but I suspect there will be other things I need
too, but I don't
> really even know which man pages or whatever to start
with.
>
> Currently I have Linux, GIMP, Nikon D50 camera, ufraw,
gutenprint, an
> ICC profile for my monitor (generated with a hardware
profiling tool
> under windoze), an Epson R200 printer with a custom
profile for the
> ink/paper combination I'm using (generated by the ink
manufacturer).
>
> So far everything is entirely non-color managed. I just
use ufraw to
> read .nef files from the camera into GIMP and hope for
the best. It's
> not a disaster so long as I used a custom white balance
and don't try
> to mess with the color at all. However, I know there
should be more;
> how do I tie this together? Where do I start reading?
>
> Many thanks in advance for any pointers you can offer.

You have likely seen the thread on this list titled
"Workflow with LCMS".  
That thread has lots of information about what tools to use
and how to learn 
more about the subject.

There are a number of tools that you can use to get a
working CM system on 
Linux.  Because this is still not a mature area on Linux
there are some 
things that you will have do manually.

What hardware did you use to profile your monitor on
Windows.  If it is the 
X-Rite DPT-94 then ArgyllCMS 0.6 has will work for monitor
calibration and 
profiling on Linux.  This will allow you to get a profile
and calibration 
that are correct for your setup.  The Windows profile is
likely not correct 
but may be better than nothing.  If you want to use the
Windows profile you 
should look into xcallib which is a gamma loader that will
use the VCGT from 
the profile to setup the LUT in your video card.

For profiling your camera you will need an IT8.7 target and
some software.  I 
recommend the Wolf Faust C1 IT8.7 target for camera
profiling.   I would also 
recommend LProf as your profiling software for this.  It
includes a UFRAW 
profiling tutorial in it's help system.  Has a GUI and if
fairly easy to use 
as these things go.  

I currently recommend CinePaint as your image editor.  It
has full CM support 
and handles high bit depth images.

Is the custom printer profile generated from a target you
printed using your 
work flow on your machine?  If not then it is likely not
valid.  Printer 
profiling is a very difficult undertaking and it also
requires some fairly 
expensive equipment.  There may be others here that have
experience with this 
using Linux and Guten-Print that could give you some
pointers. 

There is a learning curve to all of this stuff so be
prepared to struggle with 
all of this at least a little and some of it alot.  Start
with the easier 
stuff first.  Camera profiling  is were I would recommend
you start.  Not too 
difficult and it is a the beginning of your work flow.  Then
do what you can 
with your monitor and so on.

Hal

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