The order of tags in links

Today at the presentation given by the Gip/Nijmegen-team
Andrew and I
discussed the order of tags within links (in response to his
new
mockup, which he will show us soon, I guess...).

The question is: What anology, search, or a
dir-structure...

~ The current order of tags is modelled after a
directory-structure: ~

A typical LL-url would be:

GroningenUniversity/History/Foucault

Where the tags are of type:

Context 1 / Context 2 / Content

When it's being resolved and not all tags can be found the
following
sets of links are tried:

GroningenUniversity/History/Foucault
GroningenUniversity/Foucault
Foucault

(also see
http://www.logilogi.org/pub/mantadocs/app/cla
sses/Link.html#M000202)

Logi-links (links to a specific Logi) are constructed as in
this
scheme:

GroningenUniversity/History/Foucault=<logi_id>

And when browsing GroningenUniversity/History/Foucault one
would see 
the menu assocated with History (the menu-logi would be
tagged with 
History as type menu, and have GroningenUniversity as a
context-tag).

~ The order of the proposals of Andrew is modelled after a
query: ~

A typical query would be:

Foucault, History, GroningenUniversity

Where the tags are of type:

Content, Context 1, Context 2

And on resolving the tried out sets would be:

Foucault, History, GroningenUniversity
Foucault, History
Foucault

(Fairly superior in simplicity!)

Logi-links would then - to stick with the logic - be
something like
this:

<logi_id>=Foucault,History,GroningenUniversity

A bit les logical, and surely counter-intuitive in the
url-bar of the
browser, but the advantage would be that logi-links could
become plain
and simple permalinks, by leaving out the tags, which would
then be
added as received tags (from the main_link associated with
the logi):

<logi_id>

Menu's and news and such could become a bit
counter-intuitive, but
this could be fixed by showing the tag with which the menu
is
associated also in a different color than the other
context-tags.

Something like

(Foucault) <History> GroningenUniversity

(where the ()'s and <>'s stand for different colors,
probably the <>'s
matching the color of the menu...)

If History would not have a menu, but GroningenUniversity
would, then
it would show as

(Foucault) History <GroningenUniversity>

~ The choice... ~

The options:
1) Dir-structure for both urls and query's
2) Query-structure for both urls and query's
3) Query-structure for queries (the wizzard and the
requested-received-
   listing) and a dir-structure for urls...

I see them both as having some merits and some problems.

Actually I am slightly leaning towards option 2, and I am at
least
interested in trying option 3 (for the UI), especially as it
will also
fit in nicely with the wizzard that is part of UI-proposal.

What are the opinions of others on this ?

(I see that it could be a problem to have 2 different orders
of tags
at the same time...)

Wybo

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Hello everyone,

In accordance with my personal "simplicity is key"
motto, I would vote
for option 2. I agree with Andrew about the sequence of tags
(primary
first). Also, regardless of the sequence of tags you choose
in the
end, it seems best that the display in the address bar is
the same as
that in the GUI view.

Regards,
Charl


On 7/4/07, Wybo Wiersma <wybologilogi.org> wrote:
> Today at the presentation given by the
Gip/Nijmegen-team Andrew and I
> discussed the order of tags within links (in response
to his new
> mockup, which he will show us soon, I guess...).
>
> The question is: What anology, search, or a
dir-structure...
>
> ~ The current order of tags is modelled after a
directory-structure: ~
>
> A typical LL-url would be:
>
> GroningenUniversity/History/Foucault
>
> Where the tags are of type:
>
> Context 1 / Context 2 / Content
>
> When it's being resolved and not all tags can be found
the following
> sets of links are tried:
>
> GroningenUniversity/History/Foucault
> GroningenUniversity/Foucault
> Foucault
>
> (also see
> http://www.logilogi.org/pub/mantadocs/app/cla
sses/Link.html#M000202)
>
> Logi-links (links to a specific Logi) are constructed
as in this
> scheme:
>
> GroningenUniversity/History/Foucault=<logi_id>
>
> And when browsing GroningenUniversity/History/Foucault
one would see
> the menu assocated with History (the menu-logi would be
tagged with
> History as type menu, and have GroningenUniversity as a
context-tag).
>
> ~ The order of the proposals of Andrew is modelled
after a query: ~
>
> A typical query would be:
>
> Foucault, History, GroningenUniversity
>
> Where the tags are of type:
>
> Content, Context 1, Context 2
>
> And on resolving the tried out sets would be:
>
> Foucault, History, GroningenUniversity
> Foucault, History
> Foucault
>
> (Fairly superior in simplicity!)
>
> Logi-links would then - to stick with the logic - be
something like
> this:
>
> <logi_id>=Foucault,History,GroningenUniversity
>
> A bit les logical, and surely counter-intuitive in the
url-bar of the
> browser, but the advantage would be that logi-links
could become plain
> and simple permalinks, by leaving out the tags, which
would then be
> added as received tags (from the main_link associated
with the logi):
>
> <logi_id>
>
> Menu's and news and such could become a bit
counter-intuitive, but
> this could be fixed by showing the tag with which the
menu is
> associated also in a different color than the other
context-tags.
>
> Something like
>
> (Foucault) <History> GroningenUniversity
>
> (where the ()'s and <>'s stand for different
colors, probably the <>'s
> matching the color of the menu...)
>
> If History would not have a menu, but
GroningenUniversity would, then
> it would show as
>
> (Foucault) History <GroningenUniversity>
>
> ~ The choice... ~
>
> The options:
> 1) Dir-structure for both urls and query's
> 2) Query-structure for both urls and query's
> 3) Query-structure for queries (the wizzard and the
requested-received-
>    listing) and a dir-structure for urls...
>
> I see them both as having some merits and some
problems.
>
> Actually I am slightly leaning towards option 2, and I
am at least
> interested in trying option 3 (for the UI), especially
as it will also
> fit in nicely with the wizzard that is part of
UI-proposal.
>
> What are the opinions of others on this ?
>
> (I see that it could be a problem to have 2 different
orders of tags
> at the same time...)
>
> Wybo
>
>
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>

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On 7/4/07, Wybo Wiersma <wybologilogi.org> wrote:
> Today at the presentation given by the
Gip/Nijmegen-team Andrew and I
> discussed the order of tags within links (in response
to his new
> mockup, which he will show us soon, I guess...).
>
> The question is: What anology, search, or a
dir-structure...
>
> ~ The current order of tags is modelled after a
directory-structure: ~
>
> A typical LL-url would be:
>
> GroningenUniversity/History/Foucault
>
> Where the tags are of type:
>
> Context 1 / Context 2 / Content
>
> When it's being resolved and not all tags can be found
the following
> sets of links are tried:
>
> GroningenUniversity/History/Foucault
> GroningenUniversity/Foucault
> Foucault
>
> (also see
> http://www.logilogi.org/pub/mantadocs/app/cla
sses/Link.html#M000202)
>
> Logi-links (links to a specific Logi) are constructed
as in this
> scheme:
>
> GroningenUniversity/History/Foucault=<logi_id>
>
> And when browsing GroningenUniversity/History/Foucault
one would see
> the menu assocated with History (the menu-logi would be
tagged with
> History as type menu, and have GroningenUniversity as a
context-tag).
>
> ~ The order of the proposals of Andrew is modelled
after a query: ~
>
> A typical query would be:
>
> Foucault, History, GroningenUniversity
>
> Where the tags are of type:
>
> Content, Context 1, Context 2
>
> And on resolving the tried out sets would be:
>
> Foucault, History, GroningenUniversity
> Foucault, History
> Foucault
>
> (Fairly superior in simplicity!)
>
> Logi-links would then - to stick with the logic - be
something like
> this:
>
> <logi_id>=Foucault,History,GroningenUniversity
>
> A bit les logical, and surely counter-intuitive in the
url-bar of the
> browser, but the advantage would be that logi-links
could become plain
> and simple permalinks, by leaving out the tags, which
would then be
> added as received tags (from the main_link associated
with the logi):
>
> <logi_id>
>
> Menu's and news and such could become a bit
counter-intuitive, but
> this could be fixed by showing the tag with which the
menu is
> associated also in a different color than the other
context-tags.
>
> Something like
>
> (Foucault) <History> GroningenUniversity
>
> (where the ()'s and <>'s stand for different
colors, probably the <>'s
> matching the color of the menu...)
>
> If History would not have a menu, but
GroningenUniversity would, then
> it would show as
>
> (Foucault) History <GroningenUniversity>
>
> ~ The choice... ~
>
> The options:
> 1) Dir-structure for both urls and query's
> 2) Query-structure for both urls and query's
> 3) Query-structure for queries (the wizzard and the
requested-received-
>    listing) and a dir-structure for urls...
>
> I see them both as having some merits and some
problems.
>
> Actually I am slightly leaning towards option 2, and I
am at least
> interested in trying option 3 (for the UI), especially
as it will also
> fit in nicely with the wizzard that is part of
UI-proposal.
>
> What are the opinions of others on this ?
>

~ my opinions:

I think Andrew's proposal has some advantages which I'd
preferred. His
proposed order also makes it easier to recognize for
example
"Foucault", and right there show the available
options/suggestions. I
see it is logical to give a try to the content tag first and
then the
context tags. I also see the context tags has an order,
which I also
see positive.

Tags are great!

I see the coloring you talk about as semantic over words (or
set of
words?), color, size, xhtml tag id, which would be all in
parallel,
from the core coding to the css styling.

In this same path, I see we should be more flexible with
tags, like
being able to asign them properties. I don't understand much
of the
branching, complexity of queries, but I see tags should be
associated
with "tag-types", like tags being an object itself
with properties. I
also see that tags should be linked to the search of that
tag
(Foucault for example) or should be to a logi=id? We've
talked about
this before.

What camed first, the tag or the logi? what are everyones
thought
about this? will we be able to walk this path or is it not
possible at
this moment?

Also I've been thinking at something written before, about
"zooming in
and zooming out" like different levels, if we got logis
as wybo
proposes, short articles to describe something specific, and
we
request a content like a person name "Michel
Foucault", you could see
the first popup logi, but then "zoom out" and
start seeing the most
common information requested for that query (plus other
tags) popping
up, some kind of map...

> (I see that it could be a problem to have 2 different
orders of tags
> at the same time...)
>
> Wybo

Both are very good/simple/concrete descriptions of both
methods, and
we should have some similar explanations for the future
(whichever it
is) version.

Apart from ideas, I would like to get more concrete on

-- 
Bruno

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I just committed Allan's code to the Gip-branch. Looks good,
although
it will still require some work on our part to make it fully
usable... 

Anyway I made a few minor cleanup changes (removed .*~
temporary edit-
files for example)... Once Andrews UI is here we can do the
rest of 
the integration of the Editor...

> --- Charl
> In accordance with my personal "simplicity is
key" motto, I would vote
> for option 2. I agree with Andrew about the sequence of
tags (primary
> first). Also, regardless of the sequence of tags you
choose in the
> end, it seems best that the display in the address bar
is the same as
> that in the GUI view.
>
> --- Bruno
> I think Andrew's proposal has some advantages which I'd
preferred. His
> proposed order also makes it easier to recognize for
example
> "Foucault", and right there show the
available options/suggestions. I
> see it is logical to give a try to the content tag
first and then the
> context tags. I also see the context tags has an order,
which I also
> see positive.

Great; Then we all agree! Let's make it official: We will be
going for 
Andrews tag-order. Many thanks for your insight on this
Andrew!

(For the record: more info in my previous post: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thre
ad_name=20070704201750.GA30673%40logilogi.org&forum_name
=logilogi-list)

> --- Bruno
> Tags are great!
> 
> I see the coloring you talk about as semantic over
words (or set of
> words?), color, size, xhtml tag id, which would be all
in parallel,
> from the core coding to the css styling.

Indeed, somewhat (if I correctly understand you).
 
> In this same path, I see we should be more flexible
with tags, like
> being able to asign them properties. I don't understand
much of the
> branching, complexity of queries, but I see tags should
be associated
> with "tag-types", like tags being an object
itself with properties. I
> also see that tags should be linked to the search of
that tag
> (Foucault for example) or should be to a logi=id? We've
talked about
> this before.

We are actually close to what you propose. Currently we have
four 
tagging-types: 'content' (former primary), 'context' (former
secondary), 'menu'
and 'news'. Where taggings are relationships between tags
(former words)
and logi's (through logi-id's).

Tags are not stored in relation to queries. Queries are made
up of
tags (but not stored)... Tags also cannot be tagged at the
moment or
anything like that (for the sake of simplicity).

> What camed first, the tag or the logi? what are
everyones thought
> about this? will we be able to walk this path or is it
not possible at
> this moment?

In the logic that I see currently a logi cannot exist
untagged, and
tags cannot exist without an associated
logi/peer-/user-group.

> Also I've been thinking at something written before,
about "zooming in
> and zooming out" like different levels, if we got
logis as wybo
> proposes, short articles to describe something
specific, and we
> request a content like a person name "Michel
Foucault", you could see
> the first popup logi, but then "zoom out" and
start seeing the most
> common information requested for that query (plus other
tags) popping
> up, some kind of map...

It would be cool indeed to have a Java 2/3D interface one
day, but
that - even planning it - is still far into the future with
current
means...

> Apart from ideas, I would like to get more concrete on

...am I missing a part of the e-mail ? Such an abrubt end.

> > I will be visiting Amsterdam this weekend, and on
sunday afternoon I
> > will be meeting with a group of philosophers who
are interested in
> > LogiLogi...
> 
> Great man! let us know how it went!

It went well. We actually had quite interesting
conversations. Also
about what LogiLogi could mean for the world and for
humanity... It's
main advantages over normal conversations being it's memory
and it's 
capability of functioning globally, across spatial and
institutional
borders.

If - and that's the big IF - we succeed in getting many
people to use
LogiLogi, then we might be able to make possible a sharing,
criticizing,
extending, and refining of ideas of an intensity, with a
precision and
on a scale as never seen before. By initiating this global
deliberation
we can truely make a difference for the good of humanity.
And our times
overran by increasing social and conceptual complexity might
very well 
be in need of such a change. Let it be our little
revolution.

Wybo

PS: The selection of the Digitale Pioniers projects that
will receive
their grants has not been made public yet, so it's uncertain
still how
we did. Also note that we applied for only a little less
than 10k 
euro's as that will be enough for making Manta usable...

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On 7/9/07, Wybo Wiersma <wybologilogi.org> wrote:

> > Apart from ideas, I would like to get more
concrete on
>
> ...am I missing a part of the e-mail ? Such an abrubt
end.
>

sorry about it, don't know what happened. I wanted to say
that I
realized I need to get to some concrete work, get a objetive
and start
coding, but I see we are still in transition, and I even
don't have a
concrete proposal for the entire UI. We should get all the
proposed
ideas/features, and all together decide what will be our
objective/proposal for next version of LL, estimate time,
and get down
to work on it... (at least I would like to)

Wybo, what would you say about this?

> > > I will be visiting Amsterdam this weekend,
and on sunday afternoon I
> > > will be meeting with a group of philosophers
who are interested in
> > > LogiLogi...
> >
> > Great man! let us know how it went!
>
> It went well. We actually had quite interesting
conversations. Also
> about what LogiLogi could mean for the world and for
humanity... It's
> main advantages over normal conversations being it's
memory and it's
> capability of functioning globally, across spatial and
institutional
> borders.
>
> If - and that's the big IF - we succeed in getting many
people to use
> LogiLogi, then we might be able to make possible a
sharing, criticizing,
> extending, and refining of ideas of an intensity, with
a precision and
> on a scale as never seen before. By initiating this
global deliberation
> we can truely make a difference for the good of
humanity. And our times
> overran by increasing social and conceptual complexity
might very well
> be in need of such a change. Let it be our little
revolution.
>
I share how you see/feel things. I also found that when I
explain
logilogi to people who likes to argue, philosophy, they get
very
interested right away. Then we have the gap between
potential and real
limitations, like GUI, features, content/visitors... This
limitations
are our current usability problem, and we should think of
the next
version to solve this problems (we are already advancing in
this
path).

> Wybo
>
> PS: The selection of the Digitale Pioniers projects
that will receive
> their grants has not been made public yet, so it's
uncertain still how
> we did. Also note that we applied for only a little
less than 10k
> euro's as that will be enough for making Manta
usable...
>

When will this be the results known? Digital Pioneers is a
very
exiting project to promote projects! it's already great to
be in the
top 20. (also, I couldn't find logilogi in the listings)


Greetings all
-- 
Bruno

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