LL links

Hi all,

Today I spend some time thinking an approach for the
logilogi links
for the new UI and here are my thoughts and proposal.

In the previous version we made the two halfs links, which
was a good
concept where the first half would take to the actual link
and the
second half would popover a box with the contender links.
At least from what I could user-test it, this approach
didn't work,
most people didn't realized there were two different colors,
and even
if they did, they didn't recognize what where they for.
On the other hand it was quite good if you knew how it
worked as it
was not obtrusive at all.

Here is a sketch of how it could look like, and I could get
it done in
a couple of days (the html/css part). Hopefully Miguel would
help out
in the JS.
http://overbits.com/logilogi/bocetos/logilogi_manta
_links.gif

For this version I think we should change some aspects to
overcome the
current problems.

1. visibility: this bubbles are very friendly for anybody
that uses
google maps, and others. The shadow plus a gray border
diferentiates
it from the rest of the content and the arrow points to the
current
link, preferably to the current mouse possition, but I'm not
sure if
this is more heavy resource consuming.

2. action/reaction: The mouse over could trigger with a
little delay
to avoid mouse pass-through which could be annoying.

3. lightweight popover + ajax load: One of the basics of
this to work
is to make this popover generic and then load the content
after the
user triggers it, with an ajax load, and the popover would
resize to
the content.

There could be some JS problems to overcome, like popover on
the
limits of the page, but maybe they are already solved in the
prototype
library.

Another change to this approach could be a more wizard one.
When
clicking the link the popover could show up with all the
content and
giving the option to the user, making clear the default and
the
alternatives, but this could lead to more confusion I
think.

Also I believe we should implement some type of cross-site
standard
popover, dropdown menues, etc. that could be reused for
different
purposes, like for example the future comments over selected
text ;)

About the colors, this is just a mock and we should get it
to fit the
rest of the site schema.

Looking forward your feedback!

greetings.

-- 
Bruno

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> if they did, they didn't recognize what where they
for.
> On the other hand it was quite good if you knew how it
worked as it
> was not obtrusive at all.
> 
> Here is a sketch of how it could look like, and I could
get it done in
> a couple of days (the html/css part). Hopefully Miguel
would help out
> in the JS.
> http://overbits.com/logilogi/bocetos/logilogi_manta
_links.gif

It looks plainly great! A good idea...

> For this version I think we should change some aspects
to overcome the
> current problems.
> 
> 1. visibility: this bubbles are very friendly for
anybody that uses
> google maps, and others. The shadow plus a gray border
diferentiates
> it from the rest of the content and the arrow points to
the current
> link, preferably to the current mouse possition, but
I'm not sure if
> this is more heavy resource consuming.

I would opt for above the link, as then it's clear that it's
anchored
to the link, and not to one's mouse... (also imagine trying
to click
it if it would follow the mouse...  ...just a
joke ;)

> 2. action/reaction: The mouse over could trigger with a
little delay
> to avoid mouse pass-through which could be annoying.

Indeed, fine, very good...

> 3. lightweight popover + ajax load: One of the basics
of this to work
> is to make this popover generic and then load the
content after the
> user triggers it, with an ajax load, and the popover
would resize to
> the content.

Making it entirely generic wouldn't be possible, because
then when
clicking the link, it wouldn't know what to get...

And my only addition is in this context; I think that we
should show
at least some contenders (or at the very least the other
links behind
the same word) already in the box when it pops up, because
otherwise
it would be an extra click again for the user...

Making it load only when the popover is opened would be best
I think

> There could be some JS problems to overcome, like
popover on the
> limits of the page, but maybe they are already solved
in the prototype
> library.

After some thought I do agree with adding the pop-overs
above the
links instead of below them... Because if we show the
popovers above
the links, and to the right of them, like:

 |--------------------------|
 |..........................|
 |..........................|
 |--------------------------|
 
  The link text

We would not run into such problems, because the header is
at the top,
and the menu's to the right...

> Another change to this approach could be a more wizard
one. When
> clicking the link the popover could show up with all
the content and
> giving the option to the user, making clear the default
and the
> alternatives, but this could lead to more confusion I
think.

No the current is the best... Plainly clicking brings one to
the best
link, and hovering for a very short while, brings up the
popover...

> Also I believe we should implement some type of
cross-site standard
> popover, dropdown menues, etc. that could be reused for
different
> purposes, like for example the future comments over
selected text ;)

Would be good indeed... Though drop-down menu's an popovers
are
different enough to separate them...

> About the colors, this is just a mock and we should get
it to fit the
> rest of the site schema.

Ok...

> Looking forward your feedback!

Great idea, and style...

Looking forward to what Miguel & Andrew have to say
about it,

Wybo

> greetings.
> 
> -- 
> Bruno

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On Dec 14, 2007 7:26 AM, Wybo Wiersma <wybologilogi.org> wrote:
> > if they did, they didn't recognize what where they
for.
> > On the other hand it was quite good if you knew
how it worked as it
> > was not obtrusive at all.
> >
> > Here is a sketch of how it could look like, and I
could get it done in
> > a couple of days (the html/css part). Hopefully
Miguel would help out
> > in the JS.
> > http://overbits.com/logilogi/bocetos/logilogi_manta
_links.gif
>
> It looks plainly great! A good idea...
>
> > For this version I think we should change some
aspects to overcome the
> > current problems.
> >
> > 1. visibility: this bubbles are very friendly for
anybody that uses
> > google maps, and others. The shadow plus a gray
border diferentiates
> > it from the rest of the content and the arrow
points to the current
> > link, preferably to the current mouse possition,
but I'm not sure if
> > this is more heavy resource consuming.
>
> I would opt for above the link, as then it's clear that
it's anchored
> to the link, and not to one's mouse... (also imagine
trying to click
> it if it would follow the mouse...  ...just a
joke ;)
>
jaja! that was funny... actually good jokes has some of
fiction and
some of reality... 

> > 2. action/reaction: The mouse over could trigger
with a little delay
> > to avoid mouse pass-through which could be
annoying.
>
> Indeed, fine, very good...
>
> > 3. lightweight popover + ajax load: One of the
basics of this to work
> > is to make this popover generic and then load the
content after the
> > user triggers it, with an ajax load, and the
popover would resize to
> > the content.
>
> Making it entirely generic wouldn't be possible,
because then when
> clicking the link, it wouldn't know what to get...
>
> And my only addition is in this context; I think that
we should show
> at least some contenders (or at the very least the
other links behind
> the same word) already in the box when it pops up,
because otherwise
> it would be an extra click again for the user...
>
> Making it load only when the popover is opened would be
best I think
>
We could go for this first (loading when it pops-over) and
test it. If
it doesn't work as spected we could think the other
approaches.

> > There could be some JS problems to overcome, like
popover on the
> > limits of the page, but maybe they are already
solved in the prototype
> > library.
>
> After some thought I do agree with adding the pop-overs
above the
> links instead of below them... Because if we show the
popovers above
> the links, and to the right of them, like:
>
>  |--------------------------|
>  |..........................|
>  |..........................|
>  |--------------------------|
>  
>   The link text
>
> We would not run into such problems, because the header
is at the top,
> and the menu's to the right...
>
you are right... great!

> > Another change to this approach could be a more
wizard one. When
> > clicking the link the popover could show up with
all the content and
> > giving the option to the user, making clear the
default and the
> > alternatives, but this could lead to more
confusion I think.
>
> No the current is the best... Plainly clicking brings
one to the best
> link, and hovering for a very short while, brings up
the popover...
>
> > Also I believe we should implement some type of
cross-site standard
> > popover, dropdown menues, etc. that could be
reused for different
> > purposes, like for example the future comments
over selected text ;)
>
> Would be good indeed... Though drop-down menu's an
popovers are
> different enough to separate them...
>
yes, we should try to get as close as possible to a working
library,
Miguel knows about this...

> > About the colors, this is just a mock and we
should get it to fit the
> > rest of the site schema.
>
> Ok...
>
> > Looking forward your feedback!
>
> Great idea, and style...
>
> Looking forward to what Miguel & Andrew have to say
about it,
>
> Wybo
>
> > greetings.
> >
> > --
> > Bruno
>

I'll get down to work it out, probably not tomorrow but
during the
weekend, as it's mostly defined, and the stile could be
modified
later. We should start testing the behaivour of the JS and
the browser
compatibility asap.

Later
-- 
Bruno

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Google is now going to do something that comes dangerously
close to
some aspects of Manta...

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2007/
12/encouraging-people-to-contribute.html

Now of course Manta is still going to be different, and
better, but
nevertheless this knol thing can become the gorilla in our
room (and
even more so in Wikipedia's)...

Wybo

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> > Making it load only when the popover is opened
would be best I think
>
> We could go for this first (loading when it pops-over)
and test it. If
> it doesn't work as expected we could think the other
approaches.

I think it will work, as it was the approach with the
previous
drop-down, and that one worked fast enough...

> > > popover, dropdown menues, etc. that could be
reused for different
> > > purposes, like for example the future
comments over selected text ;)
> >
> > Would be good indeed... Though drop-down menu's an
popovers are
> > different enough to separate them...
>
> yes, we should try to get as close as possible to a
working library,
> Miguel knows about this...

'k Looking forward to hear what the has to say about it...

> > > Bruno
> 
> I'll get down to work it out, probably not tomorrow but
during the
> weekend, as it's mostly defined, and the stile could be
modified
> later. We should start testing the behaivour of the JS
and the browser
> compatibility asap.

Cool, great!

Looking forward to it,

Wybo

PS: I'm going into the city this evening to have some food
& maybe a
drink... sigh 

> Later
> -- 
> Bruno

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Well, they are getting yet into another field, encyclopedia,
and
peer-reviewd!!!. It's obviously another piece of their big
puzzle, I
wonder when will they put it all together... With all their
power,
I've always wondered how it would be if they had chosen a
closer path
to the Free Software, maybe be part of the Gnu project, but
that also
might not be realistic, in the way that they might not have
the volume
they have today.

I've also always been radical-thinking (in terms of freedom)
about
development, that's why I believe in the GNU project type
of
development, and further more, I believe in the way we are
choosing at
LL since it's more radical, even over a network... ;) I
really see
this as the way and all other ways will survive as long as
they have
the momentum but eventually only what's part of the public
will
prevail.

I wonder if it's possible for a company like google to move
to a free
infrastructure, a fully free one. Also, I wander how will
they sustain
their algorithms for peer-reviewed and choose the best
results... I
would guess it will be some secret algorithm like they
search... not
good...

Just some comments on the news...

I'm going to read the other mails now.

On Dec 14, 2007 2:36 PM, Wybo Wiersma <wybologilogi.org> wrote:
> Google is now going to do something that comes
dangerously close to
> some aspects of Manta...
>
> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2007/
12/encouraging-people-to-contribute.html
>
> Now of course Manta is still going to be different, and
better, but
> nevertheless this knol thing can become the gorilla in
our room (and
> even more so in Wikipedia's)...
>
> Wybo
>

-- 
Bruno

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I read the article this morning and I send it to the list
but the
feed-reader uses another mail address, and it didn't arrive
to the list.
Is not bad to have competition. 

there is also a slashdot article:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/12/14/1323
221&from=rss
I think it is a good opportunity to make some publicity
about LL.

On 12/14/07, Bruno Sarlo <brunosarlogmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well, they are getting yet into another field,
encyclopedia, and
> peer-reviewd!!!. It's obviously another piece of their
big puzzle, I
> wonder when will they put it all together... With all
their power,
> I've always wondered how it would be if they had chosen
a closer path
> to the Free Software, maybe be part of the Gnu project,
but that also
> might not be realistic, in the way that they might not
have the volume
> they have today.
>
> I've also always been radical-thinking (in terms of
freedom) about
> development, that's why I believe in the GNU project
type of
> development, and further more, I believe in the way we
are choosing at
> LL since it's more radical, even over a network... ;) I
really see
> this as the way and all other ways will survive as long
as they have
> the momentum but eventually only what's part of the
public will
> prevail.
>
> I wonder if it's possible for a company like google to
move to a free
> infrastructure, a fully free one. Also, I wander how
will they sustain
> their algorithms for peer-reviewed and choose the best
results... I
> would guess it will be some secret algorithm like they
search... not
> good...
>
> Just some comments on the news...
>
> I'm going to read the other mails now.
>
> On Dec 14, 2007 2:36 PM, Wybo Wiersma <wybologilogi.org> wrote:
> > Google is now going to do something that comes
dangerously close to
> > some aspects of Manta...
> >
> >
> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2007/
12/encouraging-people-to-contribute.html
> >
> > Now of course Manta is still going to be
different, and better, but
> > nevertheless this knol thing can become the
gorilla in our room (and
> > even more so in Wikipedia's)...
> >
> > Wybo
> >
>
> --
> Bruno
>
>
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>



-- 
Miguel Lezama


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I feel somehow motivated, first when we didn't get the
grant, and now
we see an enormous project arising in part of our field.
Although it
might seem contradictory.

In the case of the grant, I feel motivated to make LL better
so we can
finally cross the "pre-alpha" stage and can
finally get to at least be
usable in order to star showing in practice the power of the
concept.
In the Knol case, because it motivates me to see the giant
google to
have similar interest to us in some way, well, not just us
but the
whole participatory web2.0, and still they are missing the
tasty part
of it, which we have and is the LL approach proposed mostly
by you
Wybo.

Now, we have from core many advantages from which we should
stand and
take advantage of them as much as we can. We are from core
free, we
are experimental, we are inviting everybody to participate,
we should
expose, as much of the process of development and the way
everything
works, as possilbe. We should get more agile in the
development.

Well, many things going through my head right now, I should
get down
to work more and talk less...

later.

On Dec 14, 2007 7:58 PM, Miguel Lezama <lezamagmail.com> wrote:
>
>
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>



-- 
Bruno

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Bruno, Miguel, Artyom (& Charles & urgen on IRC),

It's great to see us all together so much over the previous
two
days! Two days of stuff happening around and about Manta.
First the
declined grant - because of the too small audience - and
now, less
than a day later Google's Knol.

It has caused me to do quite some thinking about what Manta
is, and
what we are doing... And the conclusion, while it has been
wavering,
is quite positive now. First of all; yes, we have an
audience that is
not that mainstream; people who want to have insightfull
discussions;
so intellectuals, philosophers, and such... But the audience
is big 
enough, and interesting enough, and worthy enough to warrant
our
efforts...

And now there is Knol, the farmers horse (in Dutch ;). It is
true that
this move of Google causes me some shivering, as they come
darn close
to our ideas, and they have a hell of a lot more resources
than we do.

But regardless, they are aiming at different users. They go
after
Wikipedia, they want canonical information, long articles,
no
discussions, no real conversation between the articles. And
whatever
they do, as long as they aim for different usage we can be
better than
them, for those we will serve...

The only danger would be if people started to use Knols for
what they
could better use Logis, but I don't think they will do, at
least not
as knol currently is not using peer-groups &
article-sized comments, 
or anything that could really resemble it...

> I feel somehow motivated, first when we didn't get the
grant, and now
> we see an enormous project arising in part of our
field. Although it
> might seem contradictory.

It has a simmilar effect on me. Especially I think we should
get
something up as soon as we can, so the rest of the
development
can be directed to what users want and expect... More
agile...!

> In the case of the grant, I feel motivated to make LL
better so we can
> finally cross the "pre-alpha" stage and can
finally get to at least be
> usable in order to star showing in practice the power
of the concept.

Indeed...

> In the Knol case, because it motivates me to see the
giant google to
> have similar interest to us in some way, well, not just
us but the
> whole participatory web2.0, and still they are missing
the tasty part
> of it, which we have and is the LL approach proposed
mostly by you
> Wybo.

...

> Now, we have from core many advantages from which we
should stand and
> take advantage of them as much as we can. We are from
core free, we
> are experimental, we are inviting everybody to
participate, we should
> expose, as much of the process of development and the
way everything
> works, as possilbe. We should get more agile in the
development.

I fully agree!

> Well, many things going through my head right now, I
should get down
> to work more and talk less...

Ok, although talking is not bad either... As long as those
link-
popups are going to come along... ;)

And Miguel about calling attention to Manta, I think we
should not do
that too much, as it will have a better impact once we've
got
something up that's more integrated (& with the
pop-overs), which
should really be soon...

Wybo

> later.

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