Re: To WYSIWYG or not to WYSIWYG

I just added the TinyMCE WYSIWYG-editor to Manta, you can
see it here:
http://en.logilogi.org:3000/do/logi/edit/Logi_Log
i=Admin_User_6

The question is now; do we want it; do we need it, do we
like it...

I've been pondering about it a bit, and I think that given
our
audience we almost can't do without, even if we ourselves
would like
something else.

If we go for WYSIWYG we can say hello to HTML and goodbye to
Textile
(http://www.text
ism.com/tools/textile/), which would probably not be a
bad thing as the RedCloth version we are currently using is
not under
very active development anymore...

Still this will require quite some changes in the back-end,
but I'd be
able to do this within a couple of evenings...

TinyMCE can be skinned, so we can get rid of its
Web1.1/3-look, and
the Gip-pplz already made a start with a LogiLogi-Link
plugin (but it
probably needs to be changed / improved quite a bit as it's
not very
useful at the moment (and I'd like it to have an approach
more like
the normal-link adding))...

An alternative could be:
http://slateinfo.blogs.wvu.edu/plugins/textile_
editor_helper/demo

But as said, I think the humanities-pplz won't like it...

What do you think ?

And Artyom would improving this editor's integration into
Manta be 
something you'd like to work on ?

Wybo

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On Dec 17, 2007 4:55 PM, Wybo Wiersma <wybologilogi.org> wrote:
> I just added the TinyMCE WYSIWYG-editor to Manta, you
can see it here:
> http://en.logilogi.org:3000/do/logi/edit/Logi_Log
i=Admin_User_6
>
> The question is now; do we want it; do we need it, do
we like it...
>
I think it's very important, mostly for the LL links and
special
characters. Specifically the LL links wizard style is very
handy as it
not only simplifies the markup process but also shows (not
right now
right?) alternatives? I hadn't tried it before, I think it's
great.
How will it actually work? If I select text it will search
for Logis
with those tags? That would be nice... 

> I've been pondering about it a bit, and I think that
given our
> audience we almost can't do without, even if we
ourselves would like
> something else.
>
> If we go for WYSIWYG we can say hello to HTML and
goodbye to Textile
> (http://www.text
ism.com/tools/textile/), which would probably not be a
> bad thing as the RedCloth version we are currently
using is not under
> very active development anymore...
>
> Still this will require quite some changes in the
back-end, but I'd be
> able to do this within a couple of evenings...
>
> TinyMCE can be skinned, so we can get rid of its
Web1.1/3-look, and
> the Gip-pplz already made a start with a LogiLogi-Link
plugin (but it
> probably needs to be changed / improved quite a bit as
it's not very
> useful at the moment (and I'd like it to have an
approach more like
> the normal-link adding))...
>
> An alternative could be:
> http://slateinfo.blogs.wvu.edu/plugins/textile_
editor_helper/demo
>
> But as said, I think the humanities-pplz won't like
it...
>
> What do you think ?

Well, you are possibly right about humanities-people being
more
confortable with a WYSIWYG editor, like they are probably
used to text
editors. I'll ask some people to test the demo you sent. I
personally
think the editor is very nifty and it's a good mediator
between
textile and a graphical interpreter.

Again, I would say to go for the easier way at first since
both are
good, you say which it would be.

> And Artyom would improving this editor's integration
into Manta be
> something you'd like to work on ?
>
> Wybo
>

-- 
Bruno

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> > I just added the TinyMCE WYSIWYG-editor to Manta,
you can see it here:
> > http://en.logilogi.org:3000/do/logi/edit/Logi_Log
i=Admin_User_6
> >
> > The question is now; do we want it; do we need it,
do we like it...
>
> I think it's very important, mostly for the LL links
and special
> characters. Specifically the LL links wizard style is
very handy as it
> not only simplifies the markup process but also shows
(not right now
> right?) alternatives? I hadn't tried it before, I think
it's great.
> How will it actually work? If I select text it will
search for Logis
> with those tags? That would be nice... 

That's what it would do if it was well, but currently it
doesn't do
that. It used to fetch all logis and then show all links and
allow the
user to select from that; which obviously is absolutely the
wrong thing
to do.

> > An alternative could be:
> > http://slateinfo.blogs.wvu.edu/plugins/textile_
editor_helper/demo
> >
> > But as said, I think the humanities-pplz won't
like it...
> >
> > What do you think ?
> 
> Well, you are possibly right about humanities-people
being more
> confortable with a WYSIWYG editor, like they are
probably used to text
> editors. I'll ask some people to test the demo you
sent. I personally
> think the editor is very nifty and it's a good mediator
between
> textile and a graphical interpreter.

Indeed, the slateinfo editor is, but it has problems too. If
I select
for example the title, then the title-button is not
selected.

Stuff like this makes it not suitable for us...

> Again, I would say to go for the easier way at first
since both are
> good, you say which it would be.

I think it's about even which is easier, as for the
slateinfo-one we
would need to create our LL-link button from scratch, so
that weights
up against the backend-changes to make it work with html...

The day after tomorrow I will do some editing-tests with
TinyMCE
(http://tinymce.moxiecod
e.com/), to see if it creates neat html, as we
absolutely need neat html (no needless tags added when the
text hardly
changes) for the diff-algorithm...

If this test succeeds & all agree, we will then go for
TinyMCE.

Wybo

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On Dec 17, 2007 7:49 PM, Wybo Wiersma <wybologilogi.org> wrote:
> > > I just added the TinyMCE WYSIWYG-editor to
Manta, you can see it here:
> > > http://en.logilogi.org:3000/do/logi/edit/Logi_Log
i=Admin_User_6
> > >
> > > The question is now; do we want it; do we
need it, do we like it...
> >
> > I think it's very important, mostly for the LL
links and special
> > characters. Specifically the LL links wizard style
is very handy as it
> > not only simplifies the markup process but also
shows (not right now
> > right?) alternatives? I hadn't tried it before, I
think it's great.
> > How will it actually work? If I select text it
will search for Logis
> > with those tags? That would be nice... 
>
> That's what it would do if it was well, but currently
it doesn't do
> that. It used to fetch all logis and then show all
links and allow the
> user to select from that; which obviously is absolutely
the wrong thing
> to do.
>
> > > An alternative could be:
> > > http://slateinfo.blogs.wvu.edu/plugins/textile_
editor_helper/demo
> > >
> > > But as said, I think the humanities-pplz
won't like it...
> > >
> > > What do you think ?
> >
> > Well, you are possibly right about
humanities-people being more
> > confortable with a WYSIWYG editor, like they are
probably used to text
> > editors. I'll ask some people to test the demo you
sent. I personally
> > think the editor is very nifty and it's a good
mediator between
> > textile and a graphical interpreter.
>
> Indeed, the slateinfo editor is, but it has problems
too. If I select
> for example the title, then the title-button is not
selected.
>
> Stuff like this makes it not suitable for us...
>
> > Again, I would say to go for the easier way at
first since both are
> > good, you say which it would be.
>
> I think it's about even which is easier, as for the
slateinfo-one we
> would need to create our LL-link button from scratch,
so that weights
> up against the backend-changes to make it work with
html...
>
> The day after tomorrow I will do some editing-tests
with TinyMCE
> (http://tinymce.moxiecod
e.com/), to see if it creates neat html, as we
> absolutely need neat html (no needless tags added when
the text hardly
> changes) for the diff-algorithm...
>
> If this test succeeds & all agree, we will then go
for TinyMCE.
>
>
> Wybo

Only thing I have to say is that for what I've tested
TinyMCE on our
Drupal site, it works very well, and needless tags most
times will
depend on bad use of the tool.

-- 
Bruno

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The dinner yesterday-evening with the other people of the
Center for
Metahistory was quite interesting and animated, although
through bad
luck I came to sit on the side of the table where fewest of
the 
teachers and professors were sitting... but we had nice
conversations
anyway, and also one about LogiLogi with a fellow-philosophy
student
who was very interested! (to the point of him thinking out
loud about
how Manta might be a step over journals... 

Sadly enough I will be hard at work for an essay about
Durkheim and
the Sociological reasons for the beginnings of World War I
that I have
to send in before Christmas (and in any case before the end
of the
year) which appears to be quite some work to do right, so I
won't be
having as many free evenings the coming week as I wanted
(among which
the current evening)...

---

> > If this test succeeds & all agree, we will
then go for TinyMCE.
> 
> Only thing I have to say is that for what I've tested
TinyMCE on our
> Drupal site, it works very well, and needless tags most
times will
> depend on bad use of the tool.

Yes but a good tool of this kind should not be badly usable
;)

Anyway, I subjected it to some simple tests, and it seems to
be
producing neat HTML in a lot of cases where I would have
feared worst.

Sadly enough Charles did had TinyMCE crash Opera.

But nevertheless I think we should go for TinyMCE after the
tests.

Wybo

> -- 
> Bruno

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On Dec 19, 2007 5:15 PM, Wybo Wiersma <wybologilogi.org> wrote:
> The dinner yesterday-evening with the other people of
the Center for
> Metahistory was quite interesting and animated,
although through bad
> luck I came to sit on the side of the table where
fewest of the
> teachers and professors were sitting... but we had nice
conversations
> anyway, and also one about LogiLogi with a
fellow-philosophy student
> who was very interested! (to the point of him thinking
out loud about
> how Manta might be a step over journals... 
>
> Sadly enough I will be hard at work for an essay about
Durkheim and
> the Sociological reasons for the beginnings of World
War I that I have
> to send in before Christmas (and in any case before the
end of the
> year) which appears to be quite some work to do right,
so I won't be
> having as many free evenings the coming week as I
wanted (among which
> the current evening)...
>
> ---
>
> > > If this test succeeds & all agree, we
will then go for TinyMCE.
> >
> > Only thing I have to say is that for what I've
tested TinyMCE on our
> > Drupal site, it works very well, and needless tags
most times will
> > depend on bad use of the tool.
>
> Yes but a good tool of this kind should not be badly
usable ;)
>
> Anyway, I subjected it to some simple tests, and it
seems to be
> producing neat HTML in a lot of cases where I would
have feared worst.
>
> Sadly enough Charles did had TinyMCE crash Opera.
>
I've read somewhere TinyMCE with prototype tilting FF, wich
sould be
solved somehow, it could be fixed if that was the case.

> But nevertheless I think we should go for TinyMCE after
the tests.
>
> Wybo
>
> > --
> > Bruno
>


-- 
Bruno

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> > Sadly enough Charles did had TinyMCE crash Opera.
>
> I've read somewhere TinyMCE with prototype tilting FF,
wich sould be
> solved somehow, it could be fixed if that was the
case.

Hm, ok. If it works for Opera too (but in all Opera is not a
browser
we will explicitly support for now...)

Anyway I'm currently working on making Logi's HTML instead
of
Textile... Will commit when done, but that can take some
evenings,
in order not to break the trunk...

Wybo

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