Hibernate Lucene trademark issues

Hi,
I am not really familiar with Compass I haven't really
looked at the 
code, Hibernate Lucene (now renamed Hibernate Search)
started from a 
user demand. I had some in depth discussions though, with
some users 
that evaluated both Compass and Hibernate Search that helped
me drive 
its design.

Here are the arguments in favor of Hibernate Search:
1. not Yet Another API to deal with your domain model
If you already use an ORM (JPA or Hibernate), you are
familiar with 
those APIs. Using compass implies that you have to use a
different set 
of API to play with the object lifecycle (CRUD).
Hibernate Search is integrated with the org.hibernate.Query
interface, 
and all the CUD operations on the index are triggered from
the Hibernate 
CUD operations.

2. Metadata
Metadata are minimal and fit particularly well through
annotations, so 
you don't have yet another XML representation of ther same
domain model 
(Compass might now have annotations support, you'll have to
check)

3. it's all about managed objects (ie managed by the Session
or the 
EntityManager)
Hibernate Search gives you back objects managed by the
Session, so any 
change made to them will (by default) be synchronized with
the database, 
this is the normal behavior of an ORM, but is not what you
have from a 
Compass search.
This approach fits well with the JBoss Seam approach of
having all the 
application around the domain model and EJB 3.0

4. Not too much abstraction
 From what I've heard, Compass borrow a lot of its design /
classnames 
from Hibernate/Spring/Lucene. Compass tries to abstract
those 3 
techlnologies (at least Hibernate and Lucene), by providing
its own 
infrastructure.
What am trying to do with Hibernate Search is to keep the
abstraction as 
light as possible. For advanced Lucene query you'll have to
use pure 
Lucene APIs, which is possible / natural with Hibernate
Search


I invite you to check these links (which I expect to release
soon)
http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
and for the future (but flexible)
http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00393.html

HTH

Emmanuel

Lukas Vlcek wrote:
>
> Emanuael,
> I would be glad to hear your answer here (on user
list).
> Regards,
> Lukas
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuelhibernate.org>
> Date: Nov 13, 2006 11:07 PM
> Subject: Re: Hibernate Lucene trademark issues
> To: java-devlucene.apache.org, lukas.vlcekgmail.com
>
> Hi Lukas,
> I'd be happy to answer your question, but I don't think
Lucene dev is
> the appropriate area for that kind of discussion.
> let's move this discussion here
> http://f
orum.hibernate.org/viewforum.php?f=9 (or in the Lucene
User list
> if you want to).
>
> Emmanuel
>
> Lukas Vlcek wrote:
> >
> > Hi Emmanuel,
> >
> > I am interested in you solution. I have a plan to
use lucene and 
> hibernate
> > in my next project and search will play very
important role
> > (*stake-holder*
> > functionality). I have heard of
> > comapss<http:
//www.opensymphony.com/compass/>project which
introduces
> > searching (lucene) layer on top of hibernate also.
> > I haven't had a change to study it in detail yet.
> >
> > Do you think you could give me some high level
comments about your
> > motivation for implementing lucene search directly
in hibernate code,
> > couldn't you just use compass project? Is there
any fundamental 
> difference
> > between your approach and comapss?
> >
> > Many thanks,
> > Lukas
> >
> > On 11/6/06, Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuelhibernate.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi guys,
> > > I'm Emmanuel Bernard from JBoss.
> > > I'm the current lead developer of the
Hibernate Lucene integration
> > module.
> > > The goal of this project is to facilitate the
integration of a search
> > > capability to Hibernate based applications.
And guess what, I use 
> Lucene
> > > 
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.hibernate.org/hib_docs/ann
otations/reference/en/html/lucene.html
> > >
> > 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
> > >
> > > I realized this week end that the 'Hibernate
Lucene' name might 
> infringe
> > > the Apache Lucene trademark policy.
> > > http://www.cafepress
.com/lucene/ seems to state that Lucene is a
> > > trademark of the Apache Software Foundation
(nice golf shirt BTW)
> > > But I wasn't able to find any document
explaining the fair use of the
> > > Lucene brand (the license as well as the
notice seem to be silent on
> > > this subject).
> > >
> > > Even if Lucene in not trademarked, what do
you consider a fair use of
> > > your brand? I'm happy to rename my project, I
guess the initial choice
> > > was more a tribute to your project than
anything else.
> > >
> > > Emmanuel
> > >
> > > PS: please forward this email to the
appropriate persons if this 
> is not
> > > the case already (PMC or whatever)
> > >
> > >
> > >
------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
java-dev-unsubscribelucene.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
java-dev-helplucene.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
>

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I forgot a couple of things.
I do not think that all your object properties belongs to
the Index, and 
some of them will be put in the index with information
degradation (ie 
store year/month rather than the whole date). So I do not
believe there 
is a bidirectional relationship between your domain model
and your index 
documents (for size, efficiency and accuracy purpose).
For that matter, Compass cannot really truly index your
database backed 
domain model and give back the object to you. Hibernate
Search can 
because it delegate the object hydration to Hibernate Core.

Of course that's my opinions, and some people can disagree


Emmanuel Bernard wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I am not really familiar with Compass I haven't really
looked at the
> code, Hibernate Lucene (now renamed Hibernate Search)
started from a
> user demand. I had some in depth discussions though,
with some users
> that evaluated both Compass and Hibernate Search that
helped me drive
> its design.
>
> Here are the arguments in favor of Hibernate Search:
> 1. not Yet Another API to deal with your domain model
> If you already use an ORM (JPA or Hibernate), you are
familiar with
> those APIs. Using compass implies that you have to use
a different set
> of API to play with the object lifecycle (CRUD).
> Hibernate Search is integrated with the
org.hibernate.Query interface,
> and all the CUD operations on the index are triggered
from the Hibernate
> CUD operations.
>
> 2. Metadata
> Metadata are minimal and fit particularly well through
annotations, so
> you don't have yet another XML representation of ther
same domain model
> (Compass might now have annotations support, you'll
have to check)
>
> 3. it's all about managed objects (ie managed by the
Session or the
> EntityManager)
> Hibernate Search gives you back objects managed by the
Session, so any
> change made to them will (by default) be synchronized
with the database,
> this is the normal behavior of an ORM, but is not what
you have from a
> Compass search.
> This approach fits well with the JBoss Seam approach of
having all the
> application around the domain model and EJB 3.0
>
> 4. Not too much abstraction
>  From what I've heard, Compass borrow a lot of its
design / classnames
> from Hibernate/Spring/Lucene. Compass tries to abstract
those 3
> techlnologies (at least Hibernate and Lucene), by
providing its own
> infrastructure.
> What am trying to do with Hibernate Search is to keep
the abstraction as
> light as possible. For advanced Lucene query you'll
have to use pure
> Lucene APIs, which is possible / natural with Hibernate
Search
>
>
> I invite you to check these links (which I expect to
release soon)
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
> and for the future (but flexible)
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00393.html
>
> HTH
>
> Emmanuel
>
> Lukas Vlcek wrote:
> >
> > Emanuael,
> > I would be glad to hear your answer here (on user
list).
> > Regards,
> > Lukas
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuelhibernate.org>
> > Date: Nov 13, 2006 11:07 PM
> > Subject: Re: Hibernate Lucene trademark issues
> > To: java-devlucene.apache.org, lukas.vlcekgmail.com
> >
> > Hi Lukas,
> > I'd be happy to answer your question, but I don't
think Lucene dev is
> > the appropriate area for that kind of discussion.
> > let's move this discussion here
> > http://f
orum.hibernate.org/viewforum.php?f=9 (or in the Lucene
User list
> > if you want to).
> >
> > Emmanuel
> >
> > Lukas Vlcek wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Emmanuel,
> > >
> > > I am interested in you solution. I have a
plan to use lucene and
> > hibernate
> > > in my next project and search will play very
important role
> > > (*stake-holder*
> > > functionality). I have heard of
> > > comapss<http:
//www.opensymphony.com/compass/>project which
introduces
> > > searching (lucene) layer on top of hibernate
also.
> > > I haven't had a change to study it in detail
yet.
> > >
> > > Do you think you could give me some high
level comments about your
> > > motivation for implementing lucene search
directly in hibernate code,
> > > couldn't you just use compass project? Is
there any fundamental
> > difference
> > > between your approach and comapss?
> > >
> > > Many thanks,
> > > Lukas
> > >
> > > On 11/6/06, Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuelhibernate.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi guys,
> > > > I'm Emmanuel Bernard from JBoss.
> > > > I'm the current lead developer of the
Hibernate Lucene integration
> > > module.
> > > > The goal of this project is to
facilitate the integration of a 
> search
> > > > capability to Hibernate based
applications. And guess what, I use
> > Lucene
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> http://www.hibernate.org/hib_docs/ann
otations/reference/en/html/lucene.html
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
> > > >
> > > > I realized this week end that the
'Hibernate Lucene' name might
> > infringe
> > > > the Apache Lucene trademark policy.
> > > > http://www.cafepress
.com/lucene/ seems to state that Lucene is a
> > > > trademark of the Apache Software
Foundation (nice golf shirt BTW)
> > > > But I wasn't able to find any document
explaining the fair use 
> of the
> > > > Lucene brand (the license as well as the
notice seem to be silent on
> > > > this subject).
> > > >
> > > > Even if Lucene in not trademarked, what
do you consider a fair 
> use of
> > > > your brand? I'm happy to rename my
project, I guess the initial 
> choice
> > > > was more a tribute to your project than
anything else.
> > > >
> > > > Emmanuel
> > > >
> > > > PS: please forward this email to the
appropriate persons if this
> > is not
> > > > the case already (PMC or whatever)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 
>
------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
java-dev-unsubscribelucene.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
java-dev-helplucene.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscribelucene.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-helplucene.apache.org
>

------------------------------------------------------------
---------
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For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-helplucene.apache.org

Since I do not want to invade Lucene user list regarding a
discussion about
Compass and Hiberante Search, but I still think that it is
something that
needs to get answered, here is a link to my blog post
discussing this:
http://jroller.com/page/kimchy?entry=hibernate_searc
h_lucene .

Cheers,
Shay


Emmanuel Bernard wrote:
> 
> I forgot a couple of things.
> I do not think that all your object properties belongs
to the Index, and 
> some of them will be put in the index with information
degradation (ie 
> store year/month rather than the whole date). So I do
not believe there 
> is a bidirectional relationship between your domain
model and your index 
> documents (for size, efficiency and accuracy purpose).
> For that matter, Compass cannot really truly index your
database backed 
> domain model and give back the object to you. Hibernate
Search can 
> because it delegate the object hydration to Hibernate
Core.
> 
> Of course that's my opinions, and some people can
disagree 
> 
> Emmanuel Bernard wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>> I am not really familiar with Compass I haven't
really looked at the
>> code, Hibernate Lucene (now renamed Hibernate
Search) started from a
>> user demand. I had some in depth discussions
though, with some users
>> that evaluated both Compass and Hibernate Search
that helped me drive
>> its design.
>>
>> Here are the arguments in favor of Hibernate
Search:
>> 1. not Yet Another API to deal with your domain
model
>> If you already use an ORM (JPA or Hibernate), you
are familiar with
>> those APIs. Using compass implies that you have to
use a different set
>> of API to play with the object lifecycle (CRUD).
>> Hibernate Search is integrated with the
org.hibernate.Query interface,
>> and all the CUD operations on the index are
triggered from the Hibernate
>> CUD operations.
>>
>> 2. Metadata
>> Metadata are minimal and fit particularly well
through annotations, so
>> you don't have yet another XML representation of
ther same domain model
>> (Compass might now have annotations support, you'll
have to check)
>>
>> 3. it's all about managed objects (ie managed by
the Session or the
>> EntityManager)
>> Hibernate Search gives you back objects managed by
the Session, so any
>> change made to them will (by default) be
synchronized with the database,
>> this is the normal behavior of an ORM, but is not
what you have from a
>> Compass search.
>> This approach fits well with the JBoss Seam
approach of having all the
>> application around the domain model and EJB 3.0
>>
>> 4. Not too much abstraction
>>  From what I've heard, Compass borrow a lot of its
design / classnames
>> from Hibernate/Spring/Lucene. Compass tries to
abstract those 3
>> techlnologies (at least Hibernate and Lucene), by
providing its own
>> infrastructure.
>> What am trying to do with Hibernate Search is to
keep the abstraction as
>> light as possible. For advanced Lucene query you'll
have to use pure
>> Lucene APIs, which is possible / natural with
Hibernate Search
>>
>>
>> I invite you to check these links (which I expect
to release soon)
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
>> and for the future (but flexible)
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00393.html
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Emmanuel
>>
>> Lukas Vlcek wrote:
>> >
>> > Emanuael,
>> > I would be glad to hear your answer here (on
user list).
>> > Regards,
>> > Lukas
>> >
>> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> > From: Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuelhibernate.org>
>> > Date: Nov 13, 2006 11:07 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Hibernate Lucene trademark issues
>> > To: java-devlucene.apache.org,
lukas.vlcekgmail.com
>> >
>> > Hi Lukas,
>> > I'd be happy to answer your question, but I
don't think Lucene dev is
>> > the appropriate area for that kind of
discussion.
>> > let's move this discussion here
>> > http://f
orum.hibernate.org/viewforum.php?f=9 (or in the Lucene
User
>> list
>> > if you want to).
>> >
>> > Emmanuel
>> >
>> > Lukas Vlcek wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Hi Emmanuel,
>> > >
>> > > I am interested in you solution. I have a
plan to use lucene and
>> > hibernate
>> > > in my next project and search will play
very important role
>> > > (*stake-holder*
>> > > functionality). I have heard of
>> > > comapss<http:
//www.opensymphony.com/compass/>project which
introduces
>> > > searching (lucene) layer on top of
hibernate also.
>> > > I haven't had a change to study it in
detail yet.
>> > >
>> > > Do you think you could give me some high
level comments about your
>> > > motivation for implementing lucene search
directly in hibernate code,
>> > > couldn't you just use compass project? Is
there any fundamental
>> > difference
>> > > between your approach and comapss?
>> > >
>> > > Many thanks,
>> > > Lukas
>> > >
>> > > On 11/6/06, Emmanuel Bernard
<emmanuelhibernate.org> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Hi guys,
>> > > > I'm Emmanuel Bernard from JBoss.
>> > > > I'm the current lead developer of
the Hibernate Lucene integration
>> > > module.
>> > > > The goal of this project is to
facilitate the integration of a 
>> search
>> > > > capability to Hibernate based
applications. And guess what, I use
>> > Lucene
>> > > > 
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > 
>> http://www.hibernate.org/hib_docs/ann
otations/reference/en/html/lucene.html
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > 
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
>> > > >
>> > > > I realized this week end that the
'Hibernate Lucene' name might
>> > infringe
>> > > > the Apache Lucene trademark policy.
>> > > > http://www.cafepress
.com/lucene/ seems to state that Lucene is a
>> > > > trademark of the Apache Software
Foundation (nice golf shirt BTW)
>> > > > But I wasn't able to find any
document explaining the fair use 
>> of the
>> > > > Lucene brand (the license as well as
the notice seem to be silent
>> on
>> > > > this subject).
>> > > >
>> > > > Even if Lucene in not trademarked,
what do you consider a fair 
>> use of
>> > > > your brand? I'm happy to rename my
project, I guess the initial 
>> choice
>> > > > was more a tribute to your project
than anything else.
>> > > >
>> > > > Emmanuel
>> > > >
>> > > > PS: please forward this email to the
appropriate persons if this
>> > is not
>> > > > the case already (PMC or whatever)
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > 
>>
------------------------------------------------------------
---------
>> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
java-dev-unsubscribelucene.apache.org
>> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
java-dev-helplucene.apache.org
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------
---------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscribelucene.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-helplucene.apache.org
>>
> 
>
------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscribelucene.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-helplucene.apache.org
> 
> 
> 

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Cool thanks.

Shay Banon wrote:
>
> Since I do not want to invade Lucene user list
regarding a discussion 
> about
> Compass and Hiberante Search, but I still think that it
is something that
> needs to get answered, here is a link to my blog post
discussing this:
> http://jroller.com/page/kimchy?entry=hibernate_searc
h_lucene .
>
> Cheers,
> Shay
>
>
> Emmanuel Bernard wrote:
> >
> > I forgot a couple of things.
> > I do not think that all your object properties
belongs to the Index, and
> > some of them will be put in the index with
information degradation (ie
> > store year/month rather than the whole date). So I
do not believe there
> > is a bidirectional relationship between your
domain model and your index
> > documents (for size, efficiency and accuracy
purpose).
> > For that matter, Compass cannot really truly index
your database backed
> > domain model and give back the object to you.
Hibernate Search can
> > because it delegate the object hydration to
Hibernate Core.
> >
> > Of course that's my opinions, and some people can
disagree 
> >
> > Emmanuel Bernard wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >> I am not really familiar with Compass I
haven't really looked at the
> >> code, Hibernate Lucene (now renamed Hibernate
Search) started from a
> >> user demand. I had some in depth discussions
though, with some users
> >> that evaluated both Compass and Hibernate
Search that helped me drive
> >> its design.
> >>
> >> Here are the arguments in favor of Hibernate
Search:
> >> 1. not Yet Another API to deal with your
domain model
> >> If you already use an ORM (JPA or Hibernate),
you are familiar with
> >> those APIs. Using compass implies that you
have to use a different set
> >> of API to play with the object lifecycle
(CRUD).
> >> Hibernate Search is integrated with the
org.hibernate.Query interface,
> >> and all the CUD operations on the index are
triggered from the 
> Hibernate
> >> CUD operations.
> >>
> >> 2. Metadata
> >> Metadata are minimal and fit particularly well
through annotations, so
> >> you don't have yet another XML representation
of ther same domain model
> >> (Compass might now have annotations support,
you'll have to check)
> >>
> >> 3. it's all about managed objects (ie managed
by the Session or the
> >> EntityManager)
> >> Hibernate Search gives you back objects
managed by the Session, so any
> >> change made to them will (by default) be
synchronized with the 
> database,
> >> this is the normal behavior of an ORM, but is
not what you have from a
> >> Compass search.
> >> This approach fits well with the JBoss Seam
approach of having all the
> >> application around the domain model and EJB
3.0
> >>
> >> 4. Not too much abstraction
> >>  From what I've heard, Compass borrow a lot of
its design / classnames
> >> from Hibernate/Spring/Lucene. Compass tries to
abstract those 3
> >> techlnologies (at least Hibernate and Lucene),
by providing its own
> >> infrastructure.
> >> What am trying to do with Hibernate Search is
to keep the 
> abstraction as
> >> light as possible. For advanced Lucene query
you'll have to use pure
> >> Lucene APIs, which is possible / natural with
Hibernate Search
> >>
> >>
> >> I invite you to check these links (which I
expect to release soon)
> >> 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
> >> and for the future (but flexible)
> >> 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00393.html
> >>
> >> HTH
> >>
> >> Emmanuel
> >>
> >> Lukas Vlcek wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Emanuael,
> >> > I would be glad to hear your answer here
(on user list).
> >> > Regards,
> >> > Lukas
> >> >
> >> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >> > From: Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuelhibernate.org>
> >> > Date: Nov 13, 2006 11:07 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: Hibernate Lucene trademark
issues
> >> > To: java-devlucene.apache.org,
lukas.vlcekgmail.com
> >> >
> >> > Hi Lukas,
> >> > I'd be happy to answer your question, but
I don't think Lucene dev is
> >> > the appropriate area for that kind of
discussion.
> >> > let's move this discussion here
> >> > http://f
orum.hibernate.org/viewforum.php?f=9 (or in the Lucene
User
> >> list
> >> > if you want to).
> >> >
> >> > Emmanuel
> >> >
> >> > Lukas Vlcek wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Hi Emmanuel,
> >> > >
> >> > > I am interested in you solution. I
have a plan to use lucene and
> >> > hibernate
> >> > > in my next project and search will
play very important role
> >> > > (*stake-holder*
> >> > > functionality). I have heard of
> >> > > comapss<http:
//www.opensymphony.com/compass/>project which 
> introduces
> >> > > searching (lucene) layer on top of
hibernate also.
> >> > > I haven't had a change to study it
in detail yet.
> >> > >
> >> > > Do you think you could give me some
high level comments about your
> >> > > motivation for implementing lucene
search directly in hibernate 
> code,
> >> > > couldn't you just use compass
project? Is there any fundamental
> >> > difference
> >> > > between your approach and comapss?
> >> > >
> >> > > Many thanks,
> >> > > Lukas
> >> > >
> >> > > On 11/6/06, Emmanuel Bernard
<emmanuelhibernate.org> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi guys,
> >> > > > I'm Emmanuel Bernard from
JBoss.
> >> > > > I'm the current lead developer
of the Hibernate Lucene 
> integration
> >> > > module.
> >> > > > The goal of this project is to
facilitate the integration of a
> >> search
> >> > > > capability to Hibernate based
applications. And guess what, I use
> >> > Lucene
> >> > > > 
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> 
> http://www.hibernate.org/hib_docs/ann
otations/reference/en/html/lucene.html
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I realized this week end that
the 'Hibernate Lucene' name might
> >> > infringe
> >> > > > the Apache Lucene trademark
policy.
> >> > > > http://www.cafepress
.com/lucene/ seems to state that Lucene is a
> >> > > > trademark of the Apache
Software Foundation (nice golf shirt BTW)
> >> > > > But I wasn't able to find any
document explaining the fair use
> >> of the
> >> > > > Lucene brand (the license as
well as the notice seem to be silent
> >> on
> >> > > > this subject).
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Even if Lucene in not
trademarked, what do you consider a fair
> >> use of
> >> > > > your brand? I'm happy to rename
my project, I guess the initial
> >> choice
> >> > > > was more a tribute to your
project than anything else.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Emmanuel
> >> > > >
> >> > > > PS: please forward this email
to the appropriate persons if this
> >> > is not
> >> > > > the case already (PMC or
whatever)
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >>
------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
java-dev-unsubscribelucene.apache.org
> >> > > > For additional commands,
e-mail: java-dev-helplucene.apache.org
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
java-user-unsubscribelucene.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail:
java-user-helplucene.apache.org
> >>
> >
> >
------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscribelucene.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
java-user-helplucene.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Fwd%
3A-Hibernate-Lucene-trademark-issues-tf2651281.html#a7433312

> Sent from the Lucene - Java Users mailing list archive
at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
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> For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-helplucene.apache.org
>

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Thanks for link and your write up.

On 19/11/06, Shay Banon <kimchygmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Since I do not want to invade Lucene user list
regarding a discussion
> about
> Compass and Hiberante Search, but I still think that it
is something that
> needs to get answered, here is a link to my blog post
discussing this:
> http://jroller.com/page/kimchy?entry=hibernate_searc
h_lucene .
>
> Cheers,
> Shay
>
>
> Emmanuel Bernard wrote:
> >
> > I forgot a couple of things.
> > I do not think that all your object properties
belongs to the Index, and
> > some of them will be put in the index with
information degradation (ie
> > store year/month rather than the whole date). So I
do not believe there
> > is a bidirectional relationship between your
domain model and your index
> > documents (for size, efficiency and accuracy
purpose).
> > For that matter, Compass cannot really truly index
your database backed
> > domain model and give back the object to you.
Hibernate Search can
> > because it delegate the object hydration to
Hibernate Core.
> >
> > Of course that's my opinions, and some people can
disagree 
> >
> > Emmanuel Bernard wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >> I am not really familiar with Compass I
haven't really looked at the
> >> code, Hibernate Lucene (now renamed Hibernate
Search) started from a
> >> user demand. I had some in depth discussions
though, with some users
> >> that evaluated both Compass and Hibernate
Search that helped me drive
> >> its design.
> >>
> >> Here are the arguments in favor of Hibernate
Search:
> >> 1. not Yet Another API to deal with your
domain model
> >> If you already use an ORM (JPA or Hibernate),
you are familiar with
> >> those APIs. Using compass implies that you
have to use a different set
> >> of API to play with the object lifecycle
(CRUD).
> >> Hibernate Search is integrated with the
org.hibernate.Query interface,
> >> and all the CUD operations on the index are
triggered from the
> Hibernate
> >> CUD operations.
> >>
> >> 2. Metadata
> >> Metadata are minimal and fit particularly well
through annotations, so
> >> you don't have yet another XML representation
of ther same domain model
>
> >> (Compass might now have annotations support,
you'll have to check)
> >>
> >> 3. it's all about managed objects (ie managed
by the Session or the
> >> EntityManager)
> >> Hibernate Search gives you back objects
managed by the Session, so any
> >> change made to them will (by default) be
synchronized with the
> database,
> >> this is the normal behavior of an ORM, but is
not what you have from a
> >> Compass search.
> >> This approach fits well with the JBoss Seam
approach of having all the
> >> application around the domain model and EJB
3.0
> >>
> >> 4. Not too much abstraction
> >>  From what I've heard, Compass borrow a lot of
its design / classnames
> >> from Hibernate/Spring/Lucene. Compass tries to
abstract those 3
> >> techlnologies (at least Hibernate and Lucene),
by providing its own
> >> infrastructure.
> >> What am trying to do with Hibernate Search is
to keep the abstraction
> as
> >> light as possible. For advanced Lucene query
you'll have to use pure
> >> Lucene APIs, which is possible / natural with
Hibernate Search
> >>
> >>
> >> I invite you to check these links (which I
expect to release soon)
> >>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
> >> and for the future (but flexible)
> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00393.html
>
> >>
> >> HTH
> >>
> >> Emmanuel
> >>
> >> Lukas Vlcek wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Emanuael,
> >> > I would be glad to hear your answer here
(on user list).
> >> > Regards,
> >> > Lukas
> >> >
> >> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >> > From: Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuelhibernate.org >
> >> > Date: Nov 13, 2006 11:07 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: Hibernate Lucene trademark
issues
> >> > To: java-devlucene.apache.org,
lukas.vlcekgmail.com
> >> >
> >> > Hi Lukas,
> >> > I'd be happy to answer your question, but
I don't think Lucene dev is
> >> > the appropriate area for that kind of
discussion.
> >> > let's move this discussion here
> >> > http://f
orum.hibernate.org/viewforum.php?f=9 (or in the Lucene
User
> >> list
> >> > if you want to).
> >> >
> >> > Emmanuel
> >> >
> >> > Lukas Vlcek wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Hi Emmanuel,
> >> > >
> >> > > I am interested in you solution. I
have a plan to use lucene and
> >> > hibernate
> >> > > in my next project and search will
play very important role
> >> > > (*stake-holder*
> >> > > functionality). I have heard of
> >> > > comapss< http:
//www.opensymphony.com/compass/>project which
> introduces
> >> > > searching (lucene) layer on top of
hibernate also.
> >> > > I haven't had a change to study it
in detail yet.
> >> > >
> >> > > Do you think you could give me some
high level comments about your
> >> > > motivation for implementing lucene
search directly in hibernate
> code,
> >> > > couldn't you just use compass
project? Is there any fundamental
> >> > difference
> >> > > between your approach and comapss?
> >> > >
> >> > > Many thanks,
> >> > > Lukas
> >> > >
> >> > > On 11/6/06, Emmanuel Bernard <
emmanuelhibernate.org> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Hi guys,
> >> > > > I'm Emmanuel Bernard from
JBoss.
> >> > > > I'm the current lead developer
of the Hibernate Lucene
> integration
> >> > > module.
> >> > > > The goal of this project is to
facilitate the integration of a
> >> search
> >> > > > capability to Hibernate based
applications. And guess what, I use
>
> >> > Lucene
> >> > > > 
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> http://www.hibernate.org/hib_docs/ann
otations/reference/en/html/lucene.html
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I realized this week end that
the 'Hibernate Lucene' name might
> >> > infringe
> >> > > > the Apache Lucene trademark
policy.
> >> > > > http://www.cafepress
.com/lucene/ seems to state that Lucene is a
> >> > > > trademark of the Apache
Software Foundation (nice golf shirt BTW)
>
> >> > > > But I wasn't able to find any
document explaining the fair use
> >> of the
> >> > > > Lucene brand (the license as
well as the notice seem to be silent
> >> on
> >> > > > this subject).
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Even if Lucene in not
trademarked, what do you consider a fair
> >> use of
> >> > > > your brand? I'm happy to rename
my project, I guess the initial
> >> choice
> >> > > > was more a tribute to your
project than anything else.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Emmanuel
> >> > > >
> >> > > > PS: please forward this email
to the appropriate persons if this
> >> > is not
> >> > > > the case already (PMC or
whatever)
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >>
------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
java-dev-unsubscribelucene.apache.org
> >> > > > For additional commands,
e-mail: java-dev-helplucene.apache.org
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
java-user-unsubscribelucene.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail:
java-user-helplucene.apache.org
> >>
> >
> >
------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscribelucene.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
java-user-helplucene.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Fwd%
3A-Hibernate-Lucene-trademark-issues-tf2651281.html#a7433312

> Sent from the Lucene - Java Users mailing list archive
at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscribelucene.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-helplucene.apache.org
>
>

Hi,Emmanuel
i think you did a very greate job!  Since i am now working
on a system that
using lucene to implement a search engine, i would like to
know some more
details about Hinbernate Search.

  I have read some of the code in Hinbernate 3.2GA release,
the code is
pretty cool, but  there is one thing i doubt:

  For the update operation Hibernate Search used remove
& update.which refer
to Lucene's deleteDocuments method.  That's ok and i also
could only find
this way to update the index data. This will works fine when
the operation
does not have high frequency.

But as i know  the remove operation in lucene only marked a
tag for the
deleted document without actually delete the data ofr index
files.  We know
in some systems the data would be updated in a very high 
frequency(eg. an
traffic status query system), then it will not take a long
time that the
index will be filled with lots of expired document data, 
even if the data
update is not as fast as a traffic status, i think this
problem is still
very critical since things we stored in databases are always
updating.

 Is there any way to solve this in Hibernate Search?


Richie


2006/11/19, Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuelhibernate.org>:
>
> I forgot a couple of things.
> I do not think that all your object properties belongs
to the Index, and
> some of them will be put in the index with information
degradation (ie
> store year/month rather than the whole date). So I do
not believe there
> is a bidirectional relationship between your domain
model and your index
> documents (for size, efficiency and accuracy purpose).
> For that matter, Compass cannot really truly index your
database backed
> domain model and give back the object to you. Hibernate
Search can
> because it delegate the object hydration to Hibernate
Core.
>
> Of course that's my opinions, and some people can
disagree 
>
> Emmanuel Bernard wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > I am not really familiar with Compass I haven't
really looked at the
> > code, Hibernate Lucene (now renamed Hibernate
Search) started from a
> > user demand. I had some in depth discussions
though, with some users
> > that evaluated both Compass and Hibernate Search
that helped me drive
> > its design.
> >
> > Here are the arguments in favor of Hibernate
Search:
> > 1. not Yet Another API to deal with your domain
model
> > If you already use an ORM (JPA or Hibernate), you
are familiar with
> > those APIs. Using compass implies that you have to
use a different set
> > of API to play with the object lifecycle (CRUD).
> > Hibernate Search is integrated with the
org.hibernate.Query interface,
> > and all the CUD operations on the index are
triggered from the Hibernate
> > CUD operations.
> >
> > 2. Metadata
> > Metadata are minimal and fit particularly well
through annotations, so
> > you don't have yet another XML representation of
ther same domain model
> > (Compass might now have annotations support,
you'll have to check)
> >
> > 3. it's all about managed objects (ie managed by
the Session or the
> > EntityManager)
> > Hibernate Search gives you back objects managed by
the Session, so any
> > change made to them will (by default) be
synchronized with the database,
> > this is the normal behavior of an ORM, but is not
what you have from a
> > Compass search.
> > This approach fits well with the JBoss Seam
approach of having all the
> > application around the domain model and EJB 3.0
> >
> > 4. Not too much abstraction
> >  From what I've heard, Compass borrow a lot of its
design / classnames
> > from Hibernate/Spring/Lucene. Compass tries to
abstract those 3
> > techlnologies (at least Hibernate and Lucene), by
providing its own
> > infrastructure.
> > What am trying to do with Hibernate Search is to
keep the abstraction as
> > light as possible. For advanced Lucene query
you'll have to use pure
> > Lucene APIs, which is possible / natural with
Hibernate Search
> >
> >
> > I invite you to check these links (which I expect
to release soon)
> >
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
> > and for the future (but flexible)
> >
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00393.html
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > Emmanuel
> >
> > Lukas Vlcek wrote:
> > >
> > > Emanuael,
> > > I would be glad to hear your answer here (on
user list).
> > > Regards,
> > > Lukas
> > >
> > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > From: Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuelhibernate.org>
> > > Date: Nov 13, 2006 11:07 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Hibernate Lucene trademark
issues
> > > To: java-devlucene.apache.org,
lukas.vlcekgmail.com
> > >
> > > Hi Lukas,
> > > I'd be happy to answer your question, but I
don't think Lucene dev is
> > > the appropriate area for that kind of
discussion.
> > > let's move this discussion here
> > > http://f
orum.hibernate.org/viewforum.php?f=9 (or in the Lucene
User
> list
> > > if you want to).
> > >
> > > Emmanuel
> > >
> > > Lukas Vlcek wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Emmanuel,
> > > >
> > > > I am interested in you solution. I have
a plan to use lucene and
> > > hibernate
> > > > in my next project and search will play
very important role
> > > > (*stake-holder*
> > > > functionality). I have heard of
> > > > comapss<http:
//www.opensymphony.com/compass/>project which
> introduces
> > > > searching (lucene) layer on top of
hibernate also.
> > > > I haven't had a change to study it in
detail yet.
> > > >
> > > > Do you think you could give me some high
level comments about your
> > > > motivation for implementing lucene
search directly in hibernate
> code,
> > > > couldn't you just use compass project?
Is there any fundamental
> > > difference
> > > > between your approach and comapss?
> > > >
> > > > Many thanks,
> > > > Lukas
> > > >
> > > > On 11/6/06, Emmanuel Bernard
<emmanuelhibernate.org> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi guys,
> > > > > I'm Emmanuel Bernard from JBoss.
> > > > > I'm the current lead developer of
the Hibernate Lucene integration
> > > > module.
> > > > > The goal of this project is to
facilitate the integration of a
> > search
> > > > > capability to Hibernate based
applications. And guess what, I use
> > > Lucene
> > > > > 
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.hibernate.org/hib_docs/ann
otations/reference/en/html/lucene.html
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
> > > > >
> > > > > I realized this week end that the
'Hibernate Lucene' name might
> > > infringe
> > > > > the Apache Lucene trademark policy.
> > > > > http://www.cafepress
.com/lucene/ seems to state that Lucene is a
> > > > > trademark of the Apache Software
Foundation (nice golf shirt BTW)
> > > > > But I wasn't able to find any
document explaining the fair use
> > of the
> > > > > Lucene brand (the license as well
as the notice seem to be silent
> on
> > > > > this subject).
> > > > >
> > > > > Even if Lucene in not trademarked,
what do you consider a fair
> > use of
> > > > > your brand? I'm happy to rename my
project, I guess the initial
> > choice
> > > > > was more a tribute to your project
than anything else.
> > > > >
> > > > > Emmanuel
> > > > >
> > > > > PS: please forward this email to
the appropriate persons if this
> > > is not
> > > > > the case already (PMC or whatever)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >
------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
java-dev-unsubscribelucene.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
java-dev-helplucene.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscribelucene.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
java-user-helplucene.apache.org
> >
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: java-user-unsubscribelucene.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: java-user-helplucene.apache.org
>
>

Hi Jin,
I'll answer your email on the hibernate dev list.
See you there 

Jin Yiqing wrote:
>
> Hi,Emmanuel
> i think you did a very greate job!  Since i am now
working on a system 
> that
> using lucene to implement a search engine, i would like
to know some more
> details about Hinbernate Search.
>
>   I have read some of the code in Hinbernate 3.2GA
release, the code is
> pretty cool, but  there is one thing i doubt:
>
>   For the update operation Hibernate Search used remove
& update.which 
> refer
> to Lucene's deleteDocuments method.  That's ok and i
also could only find
> this way to update the index data. This will works fine
when the operation
> does not have high frequency.
>
> But as i know  the remove operation in lucene only
marked a tag for the
> deleted document without actually delete the data ofr
index files.  We 
> know
> in some systems the data would be updated in a very
high  frequency(eg. an
> traffic status query system), then it will not take a
long time that the
> index will be filled with lots of expired document
data,  even if the data
> update is not as fast as a traffic status, i think this
problem is still
> very critical since things we stored in databases are
always updating.
>
>  Is there any way to solve this in Hibernate Search?
>
>
> Richie
>
>
> 2006/11/19, Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuelhibernate.org>:
> >
> > I forgot a couple of things.
> > I do not think that all your object properties
belongs to the Index, and
> > some of them will be put in the index with
information degradation (ie
> > store year/month rather than the whole date). So I
do not believe there
> > is a bidirectional relationship between your
domain model and your index
> > documents (for size, efficiency and accuracy
purpose).
> > For that matter, Compass cannot really truly index
your database backed
> > domain model and give back the object to you.
Hibernate Search can
> > because it delegate the object hydration to
Hibernate Core.
> >
> > Of course that's my opinions, and some people can
disagree 
> >
> > Emmanuel Bernard wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > I am not really familiar with Compass I
haven't really looked at the
> > > code, Hibernate Lucene (now renamed Hibernate
Search) started from a
> > > user demand. I had some in depth discussions
though, with some users
> > > that evaluated both Compass and Hibernate
Search that helped me drive
> > > its design.
> > >
> > > Here are the arguments in favor of Hibernate
Search:
> > > 1. not Yet Another API to deal with your
domain model
> > > If you already use an ORM (JPA or Hibernate),
you are familiar with
> > > those APIs. Using compass implies that you
have to use a different set
> > > of API to play with the object lifecycle
(CRUD).
> > > Hibernate Search is integrated with the
org.hibernate.Query interface,
> > > and all the CUD operations on the index are
triggered from the 
> Hibernate
> > > CUD operations.
> > >
> > > 2. Metadata
> > > Metadata are minimal and fit particularly
well through annotations, so
> > > you don't have yet another XML representation
of ther same domain 
> model
> > > (Compass might now have annotations support,
you'll have to check)
> > >
> > > 3. it's all about managed objects (ie managed
by the Session or the
> > > EntityManager)
> > > Hibernate Search gives you back objects
managed by the Session, so any
> > > change made to them will (by default) be
synchronized with the 
> database,
> > > this is the normal behavior of an ORM, but is
not what you have from a
> > > Compass search.
> > > This approach fits well with the JBoss Seam
approach of having all the
> > > application around the domain model and EJB
3.0
> > >
> > > 4. Not too much abstraction
> > >  From what I've heard, Compass borrow a lot
of its design / classnames
> > > from Hibernate/Spring/Lucene. Compass tries
to abstract those 3
> > > techlnologies (at least Hibernate and
Lucene), by providing its own
> > > infrastructure.
> > > What am trying to do with Hibernate Search is
to keep the 
> abstraction as
> > > light as possible. For advanced Lucene query
you'll have to use pure
> > > Lucene APIs, which is possible / natural with
Hibernate Search
> > >
> > >
> > > I invite you to check these links (which I
expect to release soon)
> > >
> > 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
> > > and for the future (but flexible)
> > >
> > 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00393.html
> > >
> > > HTH
> > >
> > > Emmanuel
> > >
> > > Lukas Vlcek wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Emanuael,
> > > > I would be glad to hear your answer here
(on user list).
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Lukas
> > > >
> > > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > > From: Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuelhibernate.org>
> > > > Date: Nov 13, 2006 11:07 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Hibernate Lucene trademark
issues
> > > > To: java-devlucene.apache.org,
lukas.vlcekgmail.com
> > > >
> > > > Hi Lukas,
> > > > I'd be happy to answer your question,
but I don't think Lucene 
> dev is
> > > > the appropriate area for that kind of
discussion.
> > > > let's move this discussion here
> > > > http://f
orum.hibernate.org/viewforum.php?f=9 (or in the Lucene
User
> > list
> > > > if you want to).
> > > >
> > > > Emmanuel
> > > >
> > > > Lukas Vlcek wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Emmanuel,
> > > > >
> > > > > I am interested in you solution. I
have a plan to use lucene and
> > > > hibernate
> > > > > in my next project and search will
play very important role
> > > > > (*stake-holder*
> > > > > functionality). I have heard of
> > > > > comapss<http:
//www.opensymphony.com/compass/>project which
> > introduces
> > > > > searching (lucene) layer on top of
hibernate also.
> > > > > I haven't had a change to study it
in detail yet.
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you think you could give me some
high level comments about your
> > > > > motivation for implementing lucene
search directly in hibernate
> > code,
> > > > > couldn't you just use compass
project? Is there any fundamental
> > > > difference
> > > > > between your approach and comapss?
> > > > >
> > > > > Many thanks,
> > > > > Lukas
> > > > >
> > > > > On 11/6/06, Emmanuel Bernard
<emmanuelhibernate.org> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi guys,
> > > > > > I'm Emmanuel Bernard from
JBoss.
> > > > > > I'm the current lead developer
of the Hibernate Lucene 
> integration
> > > > > module.
> > > > > > The goal of this project is to
facilitate the integration of a
> > > search
> > > > > > capability to Hibernate based
applications. And guess what, 
> I use
> > > > Lucene
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> http://www.hibernate.org/hib_docs/ann
otations/reference/en/html/lucene.html
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I realized this week end that
the 'Hibernate Lucene' name might
> > > > infringe
> > > > > > the Apache Lucene trademark
policy.
> > > > > > http://www.cafepress
.com/lucene/ seems to state that Lucene is a
> > > > > > trademark of the Apache
Software Foundation (nice golf shirt 
> BTW)
> > > > > > But I wasn't able to find any
document explaining the fair use
> > > of the
> > > > > > Lucene brand (the license as
well as the notice seem to be 
> silent
> > on
> > > > > > this subject).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Even if Lucene in not
trademarked, what do you consider a fair
> > > use of
> > > > > > your brand? I'm happy to
rename my project, I guess the initial
> > > choice
> > > > > > was more a tribute to your
project than anything else.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Emmanuel
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PS: please forward this email
to the appropriate persons if this
> > > > is not
> > > > > > the case already (PMC or
whatever)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
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---------
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e-mail: java-dev-helplucene.apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
> >
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>

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Thanks.

I'm looking forward to your reply. 


2006/11/23, Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuelhibernate.org>:
>
> Hi Jin,
> I'll answer your email on the hibernate dev list.
> See you there 
>
> Jin Yiqing wrote:
> >
> > Hi,Emmanuel
> > i think you did a very greate job!  Since i am now
working on a system
> > that
> > using lucene to implement a search engine, i would
like to know some
> more
> > details about Hinbernate Search.
> >
> >   I have read some of the code in Hinbernate 3.2GA
release, the code is
> > pretty cool, but  there is one thing i doubt:
> >
> >   For the update operation Hibernate Search used
remove & update.which
> > refer
> > to Lucene's deleteDocuments method.  That's ok and
i also could only
> find
> > this way to update the index data. This will works
fine when the
> operation
> > does not have high frequency.
> >
> > But as i know  the remove operation in lucene only
marked a tag for the
> > deleted document without actually delete the data
ofr index files.  We
> > know
> > in some systems the data would be updated in a
very high  frequency(eg.
> an
> > traffic status query system), then it will not
take a long time that the
> > index will be filled with lots of expired document
data,  even if the
> data
> > update is not as fast as a traffic status, i think
this problem is still
> > very critical since things we stored in databases
are always updating.
> >
> >  Is there any way to solve this in Hibernate
Search?
> >
> >
> > Richie
> >
> >
> > 2006/11/19, Emmanuel Bernard <emmanuelhibernate.org>:
> > >
> > > I forgot a couple of things.
> > > I do not think that all your object
properties belongs to the Index,
> and
> > > some of them will be put in the index with
information degradation (ie
> > > store year/month rather than the whole date).
So I do not believe
> there
> > > is a bidirectional relationship between your
domain model and your
> index
> > > documents (for size, efficiency and accuracy
purpose).
> > > For that matter, Compass cannot really truly
index your database
> backed
> > > domain model and give back the object to you.
Hibernate Search can
> > > because it delegate the object hydration to
Hibernate Core.
> > >
> > > Of course that's my opinions, and some people
can disagree 
> > >
> > > Emmanuel Bernard wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > I am not really familiar with Compass I
haven't really looked at the
> > > > code, Hibernate Lucene (now renamed
Hibernate Search) started from a
> > > > user demand. I had some in depth
discussions though, with some users
> > > > that evaluated both Compass and
Hibernate Search that helped me
> drive
> > > > its design.
> > > >
> > > > Here are the arguments in favor of
Hibernate Search:
> > > > 1. not Yet Another API to deal with your
domain model
> > > > If you already use an ORM (JPA or
Hibernate), you are familiar with
> > > > those APIs. Using compass implies that
you have to use a different
> set
> > > > of API to play with the object lifecycle
(CRUD).
> > > > Hibernate Search is integrated with the
org.hibernate.Queryinterface,
> > > > and all the CUD operations on the index
are triggered from the
> > Hibernate
> > > > CUD operations.
> > > >
> > > > 2. Metadata
> > > > Metadata are minimal and fit
particularly well through annotations,
> so
> > > > you don't have yet another XML
representation of ther same domain
> > model
> > > > (Compass might now have annotations
support, you'll have to check)
> > > >
> > > > 3. it's all about managed objects (ie
managed by the Session or the
> > > > EntityManager)
> > > > Hibernate Search gives you back objects
managed by the Session, so
> any
> > > > change made to them will (by default) be
synchronized with the
> > database,
> > > > this is the normal behavior of an ORM,
but is not what you have from
> a
> > > > Compass search.
> > > > This approach fits well with the JBoss
Seam approach of having all
> the
> > > > application around the domain model and
EJB 3.0
> > > >
> > > > 4. Not too much abstraction
> > > >  From what I've heard, Compass borrow a
lot of its design /
> classnames
> > > > from Hibernate/Spring/Lucene. Compass
tries to abstract those 3
> > > > techlnologies (at least Hibernate and
Lucene), by providing its own
> > > > infrastructure.
> > > > What am trying to do with Hibernate
Search is to keep the
> > abstraction as
> > > > light as possible. For advanced Lucene
query you'll have to use pure
> > > > Lucene APIs, which is possible / natural
with Hibernate Search
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I invite you to check these links (which
I expect to release soon)
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
> > > > and for the future (but flexible)
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00393.html
> > > >
> > > > HTH
> > > >
> > > > Emmanuel
> > > >
> > > > Lukas Vlcek wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Emanuael,
> > > > > I would be glad to hear your answer
here (on user list).
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Lukas
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------- Forwarded message
----------
> > > > > From: Emmanuel Bernard
<emmanuelhibernate.org>
> > > > > Date: Nov 13, 2006 11:07 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Hibernate Lucene
trademark issues
> > > > > To: java-devlucene.apache.org,
lukas.vlcekgmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Lukas,
> > > > > I'd be happy to answer your
question, but I don't think Lucene
> > dev is
> > > > > the appropriate area for that kind
of discussion.
> > > > > let's move this discussion here
> > > > > http://f
orum.hibernate.org/viewforum.php?f=9 (or in the Lucene
> User
> > > list
> > > > > if you want to).
> > > > >
> > > > > Emmanuel
> > > > >
> > > > > Lukas Vlcek wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Emmanuel,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am interested in you
solution. I have a plan to use lucene and
> > > > > hibernate
> > > > > > in my next project and search
will play very important role
> > > > > > (*stake-holder*
> > > > > > functionality). I have heard
of
> > > > > > comapss<http:
//www.opensymphony.com/compass/>project which
> > > introduces
> > > > > > searching (lucene) layer on
top of hibernate also.
> > > > > > I haven't had a change to
study it in detail yet.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do you think you could give me
some high level comments about
> your
> > > > > > motivation for implementing
lucene search directly in hibernate
> > > code,
> > > > > > couldn't you just use compass
project? Is there any fundamental
> > > > > difference
> > > > > > between your approach and
comapss?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Many thanks,
> > > > > > Lukas
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 11/6/06, Emmanuel Bernard
<emmanuelhibernate.org> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi guys,
> > > > > > > I'm Emmanuel Bernard from
JBoss.
> > > > > > > I'm the current lead
developer of the Hibernate Lucene
> > integration
> > > > > > module.
> > > > > > > The goal of this project
is to facilitate the integration of a
> > > > search
> > > > > > > capability to Hibernate
based applications. And guess what,
> > I use
> > > > > Lucene
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.hibernate.org/hib_docs/ann
otations/reference/en/html/lucene.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.mail-archive.com/hibernate-d
ev%40lists.jboss.org/msg00392.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I realized this week end
that the 'Hibernate Lucene' name
> might
> > > > > infringe
> > > > > > > the Apache Lucene
trademark policy.
> > > > > > > http://www.cafepress
.com/lucene/ seems to state that Lucene is
> a
> > > > > > > trademark of the Apache
Software Foundation (nice golf shirt
> > BTW)
> > > > > > > But I wasn't able to find
any document explaining the fair use
> > > > of the
> > > > > > > Lucene brand (the license
as well as the notice seem to be
> > silent
> > > on
> > > > > > > this subject).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Even if Lucene in not
trademarked, what do you consider a fair
> > > > use of
> > > > > > > your brand? I'm happy to
rename my project, I guess the
> initial
> > > > choice
> > > > > > > was more a tribute to
your project than anything else.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Emmanuel
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > PS: please forward this
email to the appropriate persons if
> this
> > > > > is not
> > > > > > > the case already (PMC or
whatever)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
>
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e-mail:
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
>
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> >
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