Re: MPlayer Developer Meeting (was: Re: Commit rules and coexistence rules)

Hi

Ive thought a while if i should reply or if i should not
...
Part in me just wants to leave, leave mplayer to its doom
under the current
administration. Not because i dont care about mplayer or the
other
developers but because i do not really see how to solve the
situation.
Iam not root, my voice does not count, be it in relation to
uoti or
in relation to who leads mplayer. And iam not really
interrested to work
for a project that treats its members voices so lowly.
The other side in me does not want to give up ...


On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 10:10:26PM +0200, Attila Kinali
wrote:
[...]
> In the beginning, i tried to orchestrate in the
background together
> with Diego so that the relevant people would come to an
agreement.
> Unfortunately, due to personal circumstances i wasn't
able to attend
> to it until the end. Also, for quite some time i didn't
want to
> read anything about "Uoti did this"
"Diego did that" and all that
> shit. My free time is way to valuable to me than to
waste it for
> this kind of unnecessary "controverse", so i
didn't read any
> MPlayer mailinglists for months...
> Now, that i thought i might catch up with some of the
things that
> went on, i have to say that our attempt to mediate
didn't work out.
> The problem persists, the issue is unsolved. It even
came to the
> point where i ask myself whether there aren't better
things for me
> to do than to waste my time and money for a project
that just
> eats itself. The whole issue evolved to a point, where
i think it
> is impossible to resolve it trough normal ways anymore.
But it is
> imperative for the whole project that these issues get
resolved as
> soon as possible.
> 
> Hence, i call for a general developer meeting until the
end of
> the year to discuss all the issues that piled up over
the last
> years and to peacefully resolve them face to face.
Eligible is
> anyone who has write access to the svn repository of
MPlayer at
> the time of the meeting. 

I hope you wont take it personal but what you say above
sounds a little
like: "Ive not read your discussions, my free time is
too valuable, you
should all meet in person and repeat the discussions"

Let me quote the wanderer, i belive he summarized the
problem with
uoti quite well:
--------
> > Oh, Uoti confessed that he never intended to
follow any MPlayer
> > rules.

> For the record, this - and only this - is why I would
consider it
> reasonable, or perhaps even obligatory, to remove his
commit access. I
> do not, and TTBOMM never did, consider any of his
actual commits to be
> that severe of an offense, except as they represent
manifestations of
> this point. Some of them would be offenses, yes, but so
far as I recall
> none of them - not even collectively - would be enough
to justify
> kicking him out.

> (I'm not sure why I'm bothering to mention this, since
I'm not a
> developer and have no reason to expect any of those who
are to value my
> opinion... but for some reason it feels worth
mentioning anyway.)

I think I've figured out why I wanted to mention it.

 From my perspective, this is the single central issue at
the core of all
of this; if this is not considered to be a problem, then
there
effectively is no problem worth getting very excited about,
certainly
none worth going on about as long as this has gone.

This issue has been raised a few times, by a few different
people - all
of them, as far as I remember, among those making a (fuss,
stink,
festering pit of flames) about the matters involved. I have
not seen any
of the people not fitting that description address it, with
the
exception of Uoti himself, and since he is the source of the
issue he
cannot resolve it on his own short of conceding entirely.

Diego and the other people not in the "making a
fuss" category seem to,
in general, be of the opinion that what problem there may
have been has
been resolved, and there is no longer any remaining problem
worth
discussing here.

 From my perspective, and I think that of at least a few
other people,
this issue *is* a problem - indeed, as I said, the central
problem - and
as far as I can tell not only has it not been resolved, it
has not even
been acknowledged by those who consider the problem to be
resolved.

I do not think that this matter will die down, at least not
permanently,
unless and until this issue is dealt with.

--
       The Wanderer
--------

So, considering the wanderers summary of "the
problem" i am curious how it
could be solved by more discussions amongth the developers.
Its not us
who have said that we dont care about the rules and by
extension the team
who made the rules.

Besides uoti, the second thing is the mplayer leader.
This is at least for me completely unrelated to uoti, and i
would really
like to see mplayer be put under democratic control and a
different leader
with regular leader elections. Anyway
until a proper vote about the leader happens and its results
are in force
i will refrain from any and all maintainership of code in
mplayer.
I simply do not feel comfortable to work under the current
anti democratic
system and as its unpaid&FOSS theres really no reason
for me to put up with a
environment in which i feel ignored, unwelcome and
uncomfortable. That is not
meant against diego, who is my friend but against his
political views with
which i very strongly disagree with.

[...]
-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint:
9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

Good people do not need laws to tell them to act
responsibly, while bad
people will find a way around the laws. -- Plato

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Moin,

On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 03:50:47 +0200
Michael Niedermayer <michaelnigmx.at> wrote:

> Ive thought a while if i should reply or if i should
not ...
> Part in me just wants to leave, leave mplayer to its
doom under the current
> administration. Not because i dont care about mplayer
or the other
> developers but because i do not really see how to solve
the situation.
> Iam not root, my voice does not count, be it in
relation to uoti or
> in relation to who leads mplayer.

I am root, but that does not give me any more voice. It's
an
administrative position, not a leader position. 
And the same goes for Diego. He has only a voice in this
matter because he is a developer, not because he is root.

> And iam not really interrested to work
> for a project that treats its members voices so lowly.
> The other side in me does not want to give up ...

I know this feeling very well...

> > Hence, i call for a general developer meeting
until the end of
> > the year to discuss all the issues that piled up
over the last
> > years and to peacefully resolve them face to face.
Eligible is
> > anyone who has write access to the svn repository
of MPlayer at
> > the time of the meeting. 
> 
> I hope you wont take it personal but what you say above
sounds a little
> like: "Ive not read your discussions, my free time
is too valuable, you
> should all meet in person and repeat the
discussions"

No, i read most of the discussion (and skimmed over the
rest)
and came to the conclusion that it will not be possible
to resolve the issues which just mailinglist discussions.

What i wanted to say here is, that this negative feeling
and
bitching around takes, for me, all the fun out of working
on MPlayer. I don't mind the occasional flamewar
but a constant conflict is a big motivation killer and
makes
me to look for something else to do.
 
> Let me quote the wanderer, i belive he summarized the
problem with
> uoti quite well:

I've read this mail and agree that this is the main
problem.
But it's also not the only problem.
 
> So, considering the wanderers summary of "the
problem" i am curious how it
> could be solved by more discussions amongth the
developers. Its not us
> who have said that we dont care about the rules and by
extension the team
> who made the rules.

You'd be surprised how many problems can be solved when
people
start talking to each other face to face. Yes, i know, that
"the problem" cannot be solved by discussion
alone, but it
can be worked around when people agree on something.
Currently
there is no real agreement, people are just throwing shit
at
each other whithout really listening to eachothers
concerns.
 
> Besides uoti, the second thing is the mplayer leader.
> This is at least for me completely unrelated to uoti,
and i would really
> like to see mplayer be put under democratic control and
a different leader
> with regular leader elections. Anyway
> until a proper vote about the leader happens and its
results are in force
> i will refrain from any and all maintainership of code
in mplayer.

Yes, but also for this, we have to agree on a proper
procedure.
Currently i don't see how people could agree on anything on
this mailinglist.

> I simply do not feel comfortable to work under the
current anti democratic
> system and as its unpaid&FOSS theres really no
reason for me to put up with a
> environment in which i feel ignored, unwelcome and
uncomfortable. That is not
> meant against diego, who is my friend but against his
political views with
> which i very strongly disagree with.

I don't agree with the political views you two have,
neither
with the way you try to resolve things. But than again, you
both are
valuable members of the MPlayer team, and i'd rather not
lose any
of you.

				Attila Kinali

PS: If you don't like how i handle things as root, my offer
from
last year to give up this position will always hold.

-- 
It is the unknown we fear when we look
upon death and darkness, nothing more.
	-- Albus P. W. B. Dumbledore
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