cvs, svn and bzr

Hello,

some months ago, two questions were (independently) posted
to this list:

1) Where can one work on changes that are likely to break
the codebase for an 
extended period of time?

2) It would be handy to be able to rename files.

As I recall, neither of those got a very satisfactory answer
at the time. For 
#1 one can either work in the CVS head (and suffer the
broken code) or work 
privately (without version control - but that's when you'd
want it most!). 
For #2, migrating to svn was suggested, but it never seemed
worthwhile merely 
for this one feature.


I've been reading up about bzr recently, and it has answers
for both.
http://bazaar-vcs
.org/Documentation

For #2, it has a mv command that moves files.

As far as #1 is concerned, the "correct" answer is
to use branches; however, 
in CVS branches are rarely used and quite inconvenient. In
bzr branches are 
one of the central concepts and therefore work well.

With bzr, several people can work on a major change
together, with all the 
normal support that version control provides, without
interfering with the 
main line of development. They can pull in changes from the
main development 
so as not to drift away too far. When the major change is
finished, it's just 
merged back.


As far as I can see, the biggest disadvantage is that there
is no central 
server. This can make it confusing for people just joining,
as they need to 
orient themselves as to where to get the code, but it should
be OK with a 
little care.


Should we consider this? (Or, I guess, some other
distributed versioning?)


Jiri
-- 
Jiri Baum <jiribaum.com.au>                   http://www.baum.com.au/~
jiri

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Actually what you describe sounds just like Subversion.  It
has all  
the features that you discuss and it is much more mature. 
People are  
more likely to already have clients set up to use it.

The big advantage to branches in Subversion is when you copy
the  
files to the branch the repository doesn't get bigger.  It
still  
keeps track of the branch as diffs from the trunk.  This may
not  
matter if you don't own the hard drive but it's nice if you
do.  I  
don't know if SF cares about how much space the project uses
but if  
they do this would be a nice feature.

The "no central server" nature of Bazaar seems to
be it's primary  
selling point.  For it to work as they describe you'd have
to have  
the entire repository stored on your local hard drive.  This
allows  
it to work without a network connection.  Subversion allows
all of  
the moving, copying, branching, deleting etc to happen while
 
offline.  It remembers everything that you did and then
updates the  
repos on commit.  You just can't access ANY revision while
offline.   
You can revert to the last updated revision while offline
and that  
comes in handy when you try something new, break the whole
thing and  
just want to go back.    I guess I
don't see the real advantage to  
Bazaar.

Godspeed,

Phil Birkelbach



Jiri Baum wrote:
> Hello,
>
> some months ago, two questions were (independently)
posted to this  
> list:
>
> 1) Where can one work on changes that are likely to
break the  
> codebase for an extended period of time?
>
> 2) It would be handy to be able to rename files.
>
> As I recall, neither of those got a very satisfactory
answer at the  
> time. For #1 one can either work in the CVS head (and
suffer the  
> broken code) or work privately (without version control
- but  
> that's when you'd want it most!). For #2, migrating to
svn was  
> suggested, but it never seemed worthwhile merely for
this one feature.
>
>
> I've been reading up about bzr recently, and it has
answers for both.
> http://bazaar-vcs
.org/Documentation
>
> For #2, it has a mv command that moves files.
>
> As far as #1 is concerned, the "correct"
answer is to use branches;  
> however, in CVS branches are rarely used and quite
inconvenient. In  
> bzr branches are one of the central concepts and
therefore work well.
>
> With bzr, several people can work on a major change
together, with  
> all the normal support that version control provides,
without  
> interfering with the main line of development. They can
pull in  
> changes from the main development so as not to drift
away too far.  
> When the major change is finished, it's just merged
back.
>
>
> As far as I can see, the biggest disadvantage is that
there is no  
> central server. This can make it confusing for people
just joining,  
> as they need to orient themselves as to where to get
the code, but  
> it should be OK with a little care.
>
>
> Should we consider this? (Or, I guess, some other
distributed  
> versioning?)
>
>
> Jiri
>


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Hello,

Phil Birkelbach:
> Actually what you describe sounds just like Subversion.
 It has all
> the features that you discuss and it is much more
mature.  People are
> more likely to already have clients set up to use it.

Ah, with the svnmerge utility, so it does.

However, you have to have the utility (presumably not
everyone does) and you 
have to remember to init it every time you create a new
branch. 

Even then, it's likely to be less useful: I suspect most
often you'd start 
hacking first and only later realise that you should've used
a branch. With 
bzr, working on a branch is the *default* action, so when
you need it, it's 
likely to be already there. (And if for some reason it
isn't, the tutorials 
have that exact example.)

> The big advantage to branches in Subversion is when you
copy the
> files to the branch the repository doesn't get bigger. 
It still
> keeps track of the branch as diffs from the trunk.  

So does CVS with its branches. (bzr can do that, but it's
not the default; 
it's up to each individual developer)

> The "no central server" nature of Bazaar
seems to be it's primary
> selling point.  For it to work as they describe you'd
have to have
> the entire repository stored on your local hard drive. 
This allows
> it to work without a network connection.  

Yes. It also means that you're not dependent on a central
server and 
particular cvs/svn admins. When a server goes down or the
existing project 
admins disappear, bzr just keeps going with whoever is still
around.

> I guess I don't see the real advantage to Bazaar.

I think the "canonical" advantage is this: with
cvs and svn, you either have 
cvs access or you don't. If you have access, it's
unrestricted; if you don't, 
all you can do is send in patches (which you develop without
the benefit of 
version control). With bzr, it's much easier to have
gradations - people who 
use the bzr but get their changes reviewed to some extent.
Because they use 
bzr, their contributions will get credited to them - if you
run a script to 
collect statistics of who contributed each line, they'll be
listed - not the 
person who just ran "patch -p1".

This also has a secondary advantage: since cvs access is
such a privilege, 
there's a great store set by having, granting and
withdrawing it. Making the 
decisions is some burden on the project. With bzr, it's much
more natural.


Jiri
-- 
Jiri Baum <jiribaum.com.au>                   http://www.baum.com.au/~
jiri

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Phil Birkelbach wrote:
> Actually what you describe sounds just like Subversion.
 It has all  
> the features that you discuss and it is much more
mature.  People are  
> more likely to already have clients set up to use it.
>
>   
I do feel the project could benefit by moving from cvs. The
main feature 
from svn and bazaar that cvs lacks is that they treat
directories as 
versioned information so one can rename or move files and
directories 
without loosing their history.

I like svn and have use it for a couple of years. Because of
this 
discussion I installed bazaar to try it, from what I read
the main 
difference is that Bazaar does not require a central
repository (it 
could use one but it does not require it).

Perhaps the best of both worlds:

h
ttp://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrForeignBranches/Subversion

This is to use svn for the project and if some developers
want to work 
with their branches even when they don't have write
privileges to the 
repository then they could use bazaar. I am not sure if the
blame from 
the original author will be retained. If the blame from
developers 
without write privilege is not retained using this plugin
then maybe 
bazaar will be the best option for the project after all.

This plugin is tagged as alpha because it has not been
extensively 
tested but it is supposed to be complete, they have even
made several 
successful tests from svn repositories.

Regards,

Juan Carlos Orozco
ACELAB Automation http://www.acelab.com

> The big advantage to branches in Subversion is when you
copy the  
> files to the branch the repository doesn't get bigger. 
It still  
> keeps track of the branch as diffs from the trunk. 
This may not  
> matter if you don't own the hard drive but it's nice if
you do.  I  
> don't know if SF cares about how much space the project
uses but if  
> they do this would be a nice feature.
>
> The "no central server" nature of Bazaar
seems to be it's primary  
> selling point.  For it to work as they describe you'd
have to have  
> the entire repository stored on your local hard drive. 
This allows  
> it to work without a network connection.  Subversion
allows all of  
> the moving, copying, branching, deleting etc to happen
while  
> offline.  It remembers everything that you did and then
updates the  
> repos on commit.  You just can't access ANY revision
while offline.   
> You can revert to the last updated revision while
offline and that  
> comes in handy when you try something new, break the
whole thing and  
> just want to go back.    I guess I
don't see the real advantage to  
> Bazaar.
>
> Godspeed,
>
> Phil Birkelbach
>
>
>
> Jiri Baum wrote:
>   
>> Hello,
>>
>> some months ago, two questions were (independently)
posted to this  
>> list:
>>
>> 1) Where can one work on changes that are likely to
break the  
>> codebase for an extended period of time?
>>
>> 2) It would be handy to be able to rename files.
>>
>> As I recall, neither of those got a very
satisfactory answer at the  
>> time. For #1 one can either work in the CVS head
(and suffer the  
>> broken code) or work privately (without version
control - but  
>> that's when you'd want it most!). For #2, migrating
to svn was  
>> suggested, but it never seemed worthwhile merely
for this one feature.
>>
>>
>> I've been reading up about bzr recently, and it has
answers for both.
>> http://bazaar-vcs
.org/Documentation
>>
>> For #2, it has a mv command that moves files.
>>
>> As far as #1 is concerned, the "correct"
answer is to use branches;  
>> however, in CVS branches are rarely used and quite
inconvenient. In  
>> bzr branches are one of the central concepts and
therefore work well.
>>
>> With bzr, several people can work on a major change
together, with  
>> all the normal support that version control
provides, without  
>> interfering with the main line of development. They
can pull in  
>> changes from the main development so as not to
drift away too far.  
>> When the major change is finished, it's just merged
back.
>>
>>
>> As far as I can see, the biggest disadvantage is
that there is no  
>> central server. This can make it confusing for
people just joining,  
>> as they need to orient themselves as to where to
get the code, but  
>> it should be OK with a little care.
>>
>>
>> Should we consider this? (Or, I guess, some other
distributed  
>> versioning?)
>>
>>
>> Jiri
>>
>>     
>
>
>
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>   


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Hello,

Juan:
> Perhaps the best of both worlds:

> h
ttp://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrForeignBranches/Subversion

This doesn't support renames, so it would seem to be out.

There may be something else that does support them, of
course. Tailor is 
another tool for svn<->bzr, but its documentation
doesn't even mention 
renaming, even though one of the targets is CVS. Either it
does something 
fancy or it also ignores the problem...


Jiri
-- 
Jiri Baum <jiribaum.com.au>                   http://www.baum.com.au/~
jiri

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Jiri Baum escribió:
> Hello,
>
> Juan:
>   
>> Perhaps the best of both worlds:
>>     
>
>   
>> h
ttp://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrForeignBranches/Subversion
>>     
>
> This doesn't support renames, so it would seem to be
out.
>   
OK.

Is there a migration tool from cvs to bazaar?

Is anyone against bazaar?

Regards,

Juan Carlos Orozco
ACELAB Automation http://www.acelab.com
> There may be something else that does support them, of
course. Tailor is 
> another tool for svn<->bzr, but its documentation
doesn't even mention 
> renaming, even though one of the targets is CVS. Either
it does something 
> fancy or it also ignores the problem...
>
>
> Jiri
>   


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