OpenSearch

On Aug 29, 2006, at 10:23 PM, Ted Drake wrote:

> It's slightly off topic, but I thought I'd share my
latest post  
> about how we
> added the OpenSearch protocol to the Yahoo! Tech site.
This open  
> protocol
> lets you define how your web site's search engine
works and then  
> activates
> the personal search box in IE7 and Firefox 2. It also
helps the  
> aggregating
> search engines, such as A9.
>
> http://www.last-child.com/add-opensearch-to-your-web-s
ite/
>
> Sorry if it is too off-topic.

I'm not sure this is off-topic at all.  I think OpenSearch
solves a  
problem by extending RSS that microformats could solve by
extending  
HTML, possibly hAtom specifically.  The problem is
identifying search  
results for reuse in aggregation, reformatting, etc.  The
use cases  
are obvious as there are plenty of applications that already
reuse  
this type of data and could benefit from a standard format
for  
already published search results (A9, OS X Sherlock, etc.),
there's  
certainly no shortage of search results on the web to use as
real- 
world examples from the general web searches to very
narrow-focus  
searches, and between hAtom and OpenSearch, I suspect most
of the  
work is already done.  hSearch?
`
Peace,
Scott
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This looks very possible. In particular,

(1) according the article, Yahoo only returns its results in
HTML, so
we know HTML is good
(2) one could add an extra field to the OpenSearch XML (a
description
file about how your results are returned) indicating that
the file is
hAtom
(3) parties not understanding hAtom can just display HTML
(4) parties wating to understand hAtom can do it themselves
or use a webservice

When I was at MashupCamp in January (Feb?) there was a guy
from
A9/OpenSearch very interested in mashup type applications
and
developer feedback so there's a door open for us.

I'll also note that his WordPress integration problem will
probably go
away if we did this, as an independent XML-feed result will
not have
to be returned;

Regards, etc...
David
http://blogmatrix.bl
ogmatrix.com

On 8/30/06, Scott Reynen <scottrandomchaos.com> wrote:
> On Aug 29, 2006, at 10:23 PM, Ted Drake wrote:
>
> > It's slightly off topic, but I thought I'd share
my latest post
> > about how we
> > added the OpenSearch protocol to the Yahoo! Tech
site. This open
> > protocol
> > lets you define how your web site's search engine
works and then
> > activates
> > the personal search box in IE7 and Firefox 2. It
also helps the
> > aggregating
> > search engines, such as A9.
> >
> > http://www.last-child.com/add-opensearch-to-your-web-s
ite/
> >
> > Sorry if it is too off-topic.
>
> I'm not sure this is off-topic at all.  I think
OpenSearch solves a
> problem by extending RSS that microformats could solve
by extending
> HTML, possibly hAtom specifically.  The problem is
identifying search
> results for reuse in aggregation, reformatting, etc. 
The use cases
> are obvious as there are plenty of applications that
already reuse
> this type of data and could benefit from a standard
format for
> already published search results (A9, OS X Sherlock,
etc.), there's
> certainly no shortage of search results on the web to
use as real-
> world examples from the general web searches to very
narrow-focus
> searches, and between hAtom and OpenSearch, I suspect
most of the
> work is already done.  hSearch?
> `
> Peace,
> Scott
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
>
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Currently I use an hAtom+XOXO mix for search results on my
pages, but
I have found that hAtom works sufficently for most -- I just
wasn't
sure if this was a 'proper' use of it... but I figure it
probably is
since you can have RSS for search too...
   -- Singpolyma

On 8/30/06, David Janes <davidjanesblogmatrix.com> wrote:
> This looks very possible. In particular,
>
> (1) according the article, Yahoo only returns its
results in HTML, so
> we know HTML is good
> (2) one could add an extra field to the OpenSearch XML
(a description
> file about how your results are returned) indicating
that the file is
> hAtom
> (3) parties not understanding hAtom can just display
HTML
> (4) parties wating to understand hAtom can do it
themselves or use a webservice
>
> When I was at MashupCamp in January (Feb?) there was a
guy from
> A9/OpenSearch very interested in mashup type
applications and
> developer feedback so there's a door open for us.
>
> I'll also note that his WordPress integration problem
will probably go
> away if we did this, as an independent XML-feed result
will not have
> to be returned;
>
> Regards, etc...
> David
> http://blogmatrix.bl
ogmatrix.com
>
> On 8/30/06, Scott Reynen <scottrandomchaos.com> wrote:
> > On Aug 29, 2006, at 10:23 PM, Ted Drake wrote:
> >
> > > It's slightly off topic, but I thought I'd
share my latest post
> > > about how we
> > > added the OpenSearch protocol to the Yahoo!
Tech site. This open
> > > protocol
> > > lets you define how your web site's search
engine works and then
> > > activates
> > > the personal search box in IE7 and Firefox 2.
It also helps the
> > > aggregating
> > > search engines, such as A9.
> > >
> > > http://www.last-child.com/add-opensearch-to-your-web-s
ite/
> > >
> > > Sorry if it is too off-topic.
> >
> > I'm not sure this is off-topic at all.  I think
OpenSearch solves a
> > problem by extending RSS that microformats could
solve by extending
> > HTML, possibly hAtom specifically.  The problem is
identifying search
> > results for reuse in aggregation, reformatting,
etc.  The use cases
> > are obvious as there are plenty of applications
that already reuse
> > this type of data and could benefit from a
standard format for
> > already published search results (A9, OS X
Sherlock, etc.), there's
> > certainly no shortage of search results on the web
to use as real-
> > world examples from the general web searches to
very narrow-focus
> > searches, and between hAtom and OpenSearch, I
suspect most of the
> > work is already done.  hSearch?
> > `
> > Peace,
> > Scott
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
> >
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
>


-- 
- Stephen Paul Weber, Amateur Writer
<http://www.awriterz.org&g
t;

MSN/GTalk/Jabber: singpolymagmail.com
ICQ/AIM: 103332966
NSA: stephen4northstar-academy.org
BLOG: http://singpolym
a-tech.blogspot.com/
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On Aug 30, 2006, at 12:28 AM, David Janes wrote:
> This looks very possible. In particular,
>
> (1) according the article, Yahoo only returns its
results in HTML, so
> we know HTML is good
> (2) one could add an extra field to the OpenSearch XML
(a description
> file about how your results are returned) indicating
that the file is
> hAtom
> (3) parties not understanding hAtom can just display
HTML
> (4) parties wating to understand hAtom can do it
themselves or use  
> a webservice

I'm glad someone posted about this--hAtom and OpenSearch
seem like a  
natural combination. It's also very cool to hear about
opensearch  
support at yahoo.

I don't think (2) is necessary since the type attribute on
the Url  
tag [1] does just this. The OpenSearch spec defers to the
MIME type  
registry for valid values of 'type' and
'application/atom+html' isn't  
there. There isn't a MIME type for hAtom is there?

To simplify things couldn't hSearch recommend that
'text/html' be  
used and let clients either choose to use the hAtom or just
display  
as normal?  Is there any real benefit to having an
opensearch client  
know they can get hAtom in a response? Isn't the whole
point of  
microformats that they are discovered in existing human
readable web  
data and not explicitly requested?

I don't see any immediate benefit in creating a microformat
for the  
OpenSearch Description xml since autodiscovery makes it easy
to  
locate and use. But I could be convinced otherwise.

It would be great to have an hSearch page that outlined the
optimal  
way to use hAtom with OpenSearch. Is this something that
belongs on  
the wiki?

//Ed
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There's no explicit MIME type for hAtom markedup html,
excepting of
course "text/html", and of course a html
document may be marked up
with several different microformats (othoganally or
composited), so a
new MIME type probably isn't the solution.

The reason I think that (2) is needed is:

(a) profiles are not manditory, so we can't depend on their
presence
(b) the search-results consumer, knowing that there is hAtom
search
results, may want not to read the URL at all (prefering a
proxy to do
it)
(c) there is and will continue to be pages that have HTML
but not hAtom

Regards, etc...
David
http://blogmatrix.bl
ogmatrix.com

On 8/30/06, Edward Summers <ehspobox.com> wrote:
> On Aug 30, 2006, at 12:28 AM, David Janes wrote:
> > (2) one could add an extra field to the OpenSearch
XML (a description
> > file about how your results are returned)
indicating that the file is
> > hAtom
>
> I'm glad someone posted about this--hAtom and
OpenSearch seem like a
> natural combination. It's also very cool to hear about
opensearch
> support at yahoo.
>
> I don't think (2) is necessary since the type
attribute on the Url
> tag [1] does just this. The OpenSearch spec defers to
the MIME type
> registry for valid values of 'type' and
'application/atom+html' isn't
> there. There isn't a MIME type for hAtom is there?
>
> To simplify things couldn't hSearch recommend that
'text/html' be
> used and let clients either choose to use the hAtom or
just display
> as normal?  Is there any real benefit to having an
opensearch client
> know they can get hAtom in a response? Isn't the whole
point of
> microformats that they are discovered in existing human
readable web
> data and not explicitly requested?
>
> I don't see any immediate benefit in creating a
microformat for the
> OpenSearch Description xml since autodiscovery makes it
easy to
> locate and use. But I could be convinced otherwise.
>
> It would be great to have an hSearch page that outlined
the optimal
> way to use hAtom with OpenSearch. Is this something
that belongs on
> the wiki?
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On Aug 30, 2006, at 9:36 AM, David Janes wrote:
> The reason I think that (2) is needed is:
>
> (a) profiles are not manditory, so we can't depend on
their presence
> (b) the search-results consumer, knowing that there is
hAtom search
> results, may want not to read the URL at all (prefering
a proxy to do
> it)
> (c) there is and will continue to be pages that have
HTML but not  
> hAtom

So are you proposing an extension to OpenSearch to support
hAtom; or  
that a MIME type is established for hAtom?

//Ed
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I'm not sure how to be clearer: my first message in this
thread
suggests in point (2) add a single-field extension to
OpenSearch XML;
my second message says adding a MIME type is not the
solution [1].

Regards, etc...

[1] and in fact, since suddenly this is somehow being pinned
on me, insane.

On 8/30/06, Edward Summers <ehspobox.com> wrote:
> On Aug 30, 2006, at 9:36 AM, David Janes wrote:
> > The reason I think that (2) is needed is:
> >
> > (a) profiles are not manditory, so we can't
depend on their presence
> > (b) the search-results consumer, knowing that
there is hAtom search
> > results, may want not to read the URL at all
(prefering a proxy to do
> > it)
> > (c) there is and will continue to be pages that
have HTML but not
> > hAtom
>
> So are you proposing an extension to OpenSearch to
support hAtom; or
> that a MIME type is established for hAtom?
>
> //Ed
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
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>
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On Aug 30, 2006, at 9:52 AM, David Janes wrote:
> I'm not sure how to be clearer: my first message in
this thread
> suggests in point (2) add a single-field extension to
OpenSearch XML;
> my second message says adding a MIME type is not the
solution [1].

OK, so an extension to OpenSearch since OpenSearch currently
uses  
MIME types to distinguish the type of a response. IMHO this
is  
undesirable since it essentially makes opensearch treat
microformats  
(hAtom) as a special case.

But maybe I've got something wrong here with my
understanding of  
OpenSearch. I just pinged people over on opensearch-discuss
[1] to  
take a look at this thread so maybe more light is available.

//Ed

[1] http://opensearch.org/pipermail/discuss/2006-Augu
st/000057.html
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On Aug 29, 2006, at 11:28 PM, David Janes wrote:

> (2) one could add an extra field to the OpenSearch XML
(a description
> file about how your results are returned) indicating
that the file is
> hAtom

There are two problems here, and I think we should avoid
approaching  
both at once.  Just as a blog description was tabled until
after  
hAtom, I think a search results description should be tabled
until  
after there are microformat search results to be described. 
How  
exactly is Yahoo indicating which HTML is search results? 
That's not  
part of the OpenSearch standard as I'm reading it, and I
don't see  
anything equivalent to OpenSearch's RSS and Atom syntaxes
in Yahoo's  
HTML.

Peace,
Scott

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more light:

   http
://wiki.unto.net/OpenSearch_and_microformats

//Ed
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