a very early draft proposal hTagcloud

For the sake of discussion, I started a page of demos (done
offline,
so I might be wrong in some of my code) for various tagcloud
techniques...


http://factorycity.net/demos/microformats/htagcloud/

I'll go download John's original page so that I incorporate
his examples.

Chris

On 9/21/06, Stephen Paul Weber <singpolymagmail.com> wrote:
> > you should be able to derive a
> > pie chart from the data embedded in this
microformat! ;)
>
> That would be pretty cool ;)  But for that, how useful
is it to
> actually store the data in the class attributes?  class
is how uF
> finds data and names fields, but for data storage
(especially numeric
> data like this) it seems odd... especially since you're
then storing
> data invisibly to the user.  I think tagclouds need to
use class for
> styling to work (as has been said, for IE), but the uF
needs to store
> in title or inside a tag (as is pretty much uF
'tradition'), to make
> the data easier to access both for computers AND the
user.
>    -- Singpolyma
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog

Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ]
private
_______________________________________________
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ts-discuss

Just curious - but why aren't we using the uF wiki?

On 9/22/06, Chris Messina <chris.messinagmail.com> wrote:
> For the sake of discussion, I started a page of demos
(done offline,
> so I might be wrong in some of my code) for various
tagcloud
> techniques...
>
> 
http://factorycity.net/demos/microformats/htagcloud/
>
> I'll go download John's original page so that I
incorporate his examples.
>
> Chris
>
> On 9/21/06, Stephen Paul Weber <singpolymagmail.com> wrote:
> > > you should be able to derive a
> > > pie chart from the data embedded in this
microformat! ;)
> >
> > That would be pretty cool ;)  But for that, how
useful is it to
> > actually store the data in the class attributes? 
class is how uF
> > finds data and names fields, but for data storage
(especially numeric
> > data like this) it seems odd... especially since
you're then storing
> > data invisibly to the user.  I think tagclouds
need to use class for
> > styling to work (as has been said, for IE), but
the uF needs to store
> > in title or inside a tag (as is pretty much uF
'tradition'), to make
> > the data easier to access both for computers AND
the user.
> >    -- Singpolyma
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
> >
>
>
> --
> Chris Messina
> Citizen Provocateur &
>   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> Work: http://citizenagency.com
> Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog

> Cell: 412 225-1051
> Skype: factoryjoe
> This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ]
private
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
>


-- 
Frances Berriman
http://www.fberriman.com
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

Because I wrote this up when I was on a plane. ;)

Does the mF wiki support inline CSS and all the tags we
need?

Chris

On 9/22/06, Frances Berriman <fberrimangmail.com> wrote:
> Just curious - but why aren't we using the uF wiki?
>
> On 9/22/06, Chris Messina <chris.messinagmail.com> wrote:
> > For the sake of discussion, I started a page of
demos (done offline,
> > so I might be wrong in some of my code) for
various tagcloud
> > techniques...
> >
> > 
http://factorycity.net/demos/microformats/htagcloud/
> >
> > I'll go download John's original page so that I
incorporate his examples.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > On 9/21/06, Stephen Paul Weber <singpolymagmail.com> wrote:
> > > > you should be able to derive a
> > > > pie chart from the data embedded in this
microformat! ;)
> > >
> > > That would be pretty cool ;)  But for that,
how useful is it to
> > > actually store the data in the class
attributes?  class is how uF
> > > finds data and names fields, but for data
storage (especially numeric
> > > data like this) it seems odd... especially
since you're then storing
> > > data invisibly to the user.  I think
tagclouds need to use class for
> > > styling to work (as has been said, for IE),
but the uF needs to store
> > > in title or inside a tag (as is pretty much
uF 'tradition'), to make
> > > the data easier to access both for computers
AND the user.
> > >    -- Singpolyma
> > >
_______________________________________________
> > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Chris Messina
> > Citizen Provocateur &
> >   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> > Work: http://citizenagency.com
> > Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog

> > Cell: 412 225-1051
> > Skype: factoryjoe
> > This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first  
[ ] private
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
> >
>
>
> --
> Frances Berriman
> http://www.fberriman.com
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog

Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ]
private
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

Nah - I meant this whole hTagCloud progression (examples
off-site
makes perfect sense).  It all seems off-site at the mo.

And that's dedication, Chris. 

On 9/22/06, Chris Messina <chris.messinagmail.com> wrote:
> Because I wrote this up when I was on a plane. ;)
>
> Does the mF wiki support inline CSS and all the tags we
need?
>
> Chris
>
> On 9/22/06, Frances Berriman <fberrimangmail.com> wrote:
> > Just curious - but why aren't we using the uF
wiki?
> >
> > On 9/22/06, Chris Messina <chris.messinagmail.com> wrote:
> > > For the sake of discussion, I started a page
of demos (done offline,
> > > so I might be wrong in some of my code) for
various tagcloud
> > > techniques...
> > >
> > > 
http://factorycity.net/demos/microformats/htagcloud/
> > >
> > > I'll go download John's original page so that
I incorporate his examples.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > On 9/21/06, Stephen Paul Weber
<singpolymagmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > you should be able to derive a
> > > > > pie chart from the data embedded in
this microformat! ;)
> > > >
> > > > That would be pretty cool ;)  But for
that, how useful is it to
> > > > actually store the data in the class
attributes?  class is how uF
> > > > finds data and names fields, but for
data storage (especially numeric
> > > > data like this) it seems odd...
especially since you're then storing
> > > > data invisibly to the user.  I think
tagclouds need to use class for
> > > > styling to work (as has been said, for
IE), but the uF needs to store
> > > > in title or inside a tag (as is pretty
much uF 'tradition'), to make
> > > > the data easier to access both for
computers AND the user.
> > > >    -- Singpolyma
> > > >
_______________________________________________
> > > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > > microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Chris Messina
> > > Citizen Provocateur &
> > >   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> > > Work: http://citizenagency.com
> > > Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog

> > > Cell: 412 225-1051
> > > Skype: factoryjoe
> > > This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask
first   [ ] private
> > >
_______________________________________________
> > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Frances Berriman
> > http://www.fberriman.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
> >
>
>
> --
> Chris Messina
> Citizen Provocateur &
>   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> Work: http://citizenagency.com
> Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog

> Cell: 412 225-1051
> Skype: factoryjoe
> This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ]
private
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
>


-- 
Frances Berriman
http://www.fberriman.com
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

Frances,

> Nah - I meant this whole hTagCloud progression
(examples off-site
> makes perfect sense).  It all seems off-site at the mo.

It may well have reached the stage of warranting pages at
the wiki. I  
think that the process doesn't really spell out exactly when
the  
pages should be created, and by whom, so perhaps I've erred
on the  
side of caution here, it's my nature not to presume that the
proposal  
warranted the creation of the pages just yet.

j


John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/st
yle_master
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.w
estciv.com/dog_or_higher
WebPatterns :: http://webpatterns.org
Web Directions Conference :: Sydney September 28-29 :: http://wd06.com


_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

True -- but as we're in the proposal stage, it's not too
bad...
however, we do need a tagcloud-brainstorming page on the
wiki with all
of John's research.

;)

Chris

On 9/22/06, Frances Berriman <fberrimangmail.com> wrote:
> Nah - I meant this whole hTagCloud progression
(examples off-site
> makes perfect sense).  It all seems off-site at the mo.
>
> And that's dedication, Chris. 
>
> On 9/22/06, Chris Messina <chris.messinagmail.com> wrote:
> > Because I wrote this up when I was on a plane. ;)
> >
> > Does the mF wiki support inline CSS and all the
tags we need?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > On 9/22/06, Frances Berriman <fberrimangmail.com> wrote:
> > > Just curious - but why aren't we using the uF
wiki?
> > >
> > > On 9/22/06, Chris Messina
<chris.messinagmail.com> wrote:
> > > > For the sake of discussion, I started a
page of demos (done offline,
> > > > so I might be wrong in some of my code)
for various tagcloud
> > > > techniques...
> > > >
> > > > 
http://factorycity.net/demos/microformats/htagcloud/
> > > >
> > > > I'll go download John's original page so
that I incorporate his examples.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > On 9/21/06, Stephen Paul Weber
<singpolymagmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > you should be able to derive a
> > > > > > pie chart from the data
embedded in this microformat! ;)
> > > > >
> > > > > That would be pretty cool ;)  But
for that, how useful is it to
> > > > > actually store the data in the
class attributes?  class is how uF
> > > > > finds data and names fields, but
for data storage (especially numeric
> > > > > data like this) it seems odd...
especially since you're then storing
> > > > > data invisibly to the user.  I
think tagclouds need to use class for
> > > > > styling to work (as has been said,
for IE), but the uF needs to store
> > > > > in title or inside a tag (as is
pretty much uF 'tradition'), to make
> > > > > the data easier to access both for
computers AND the user.
> > > > >    -- Singpolyma
> > > > >
_______________________________________________
> > > > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > > > microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> > > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Chris Messina
> > > > Citizen Provocateur &
> > > >   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> > > > Work: http://citizenagency.com
> > > > Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog

> > > > Cell: 412 225-1051
> > > > Skype: factoryjoe
> > > > This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X]
ask first   [ ] private
> > > >
_______________________________________________
> > > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > > microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> > > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Frances Berriman
> > > http://www.fberriman.com
> > >
_______________________________________________
> > > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > > microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> > > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Chris Messina
> > Citizen Provocateur &
> >   Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
> > Work: http://citizenagency.com
> > Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog

> > Cell: 412 225-1051
> > Skype: factoryjoe
> > This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first  
[ ] private
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
> >
>
>
> --
> Frances Berriman
> http://www.fberriman.com
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog

Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ]
private
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

On 9/22/06, Chris Messina <chris.messinagmail.com> wrote:
> True -- but as we're in the proposal stage, it's not
too bad...
> however, we do need a tagcloud-brainstorming page on
the wiki with all
> of John's research.
>

True. 
imo, it's always valuable to have a page you can point to
with all the current research - no matter how useless it
might end up
being in the end, so that new thinkers can pick it up and
add to it
easily.

Thanks for answering my query though.
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

Frances and Chris,

> On 9/22/06, Chris Messina <chris.messinagmail.com> wrote:
>> True -- but as we're in the proposal stage, it's
not too bad...
>> however, we do need a tagcloud-brainstorming page
on the wiki with  
>> all
>> of John's research.
>>
>
> True.  imo, it's
always valuable to have a page you can point to
> with all the current research - no matter how useless
it might end up
> being in the end, so that new thinkers can pick it up
and add to it
> easily.

I've just set up

h
ttp://microformats.org/wiki/tagcloud-brainstorming
http:/
/microformats.org/wiki/tagcloud-examples

Does anyone have some tips/tools for converting HTML to
Wiki? All the  
brainstorming, research etc I've done is in HTML.

Thanks

j

John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/st
yle_master
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.w
estciv.com/dog_or_higher
WebPatterns :: http://webpatterns.org
Web Directions Conference :: Sydney September 28-29 :: http://wd06.com


_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discussmicroformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss

I'm still not seeing how we could easily extract the data at
all... we
have to detect all these different class names (or numbers
of <big>
tags) and translate that to numeric data?  Seems not too
intuitive...

On 9/22/06, John Allsopp <johnwestciv.com> wrote:
> Frances and Chris,
>
> > On 9/22/06, Chris Messina <chris.messinagmail.com> wrote:
> >> True -- but as we're in the proposal stage,
it's not too bad...
> >> however, we do need a tagcloud-brainstorming
page on the wiki with
> >> all
> >> of John's research.
> >>
> >
> > True.  imo, it's
always valuable to have a page you can point to
> > with all the current research - no matter how
useless it might end up
> > being in the end, so that new thinkers can pick it
up and add to it
> > easily.
>
> I've just set up
>
> h
ttp://microformats.org/wiki/tagcloud-brainstorming
> http:/
/microformats.org/wiki/tagcloud-examples
>
> Does anyone have some tips/tools for converting HTML to
Wiki? All the
> brainstorming, research etc I've done is in HTML.
>
> Thanks
>
> j
>
> John Allsopp
>
> style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/st
yle_master
> blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.w
estciv.com/dog_or_higher
> WebPatterns :: http://webpatterns.org
> Web Directions Conference :: Sydney September 28-29 ::
http://wd06.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
>


-- 
- Stephen Paul Weber, Amateur Writer
<http://www.awriterz.org&g
t;

MSN/GTalk/Jabber: singpolymagmail.com
ICQ/AIM: 103332966
NSA: stephen4northstar-academy.org
BLOG: http://singpolym
a-tech.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________
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ts-discuss

I was using class="tagcloud" on the containing
<ul>.

I also was using class="tag" on each tag link,
since rel="tag" is not
appropriate.

I've never written a parser, but I would think that those
two pieces
would give you enough context and nuclei to extrapolate a
popularity
index...

Lastly, I would recommend the formulation of class-tag, as a
corrolary
to rel-tag. As David revealed, it's not exactly clear when
to use
rel-tag -- it seems that, just like hcard, you might use it
*everywhere* you find a tag, instead of in places where the
tag
applies to local content. This is, I think, due to the lack
of clarity
on what "rel" is to be used for (a matter of
education, but a misuse
that could spread widely if we're not careful).

Therefore, in cases where you have tags but are merely data
and do not
actually describe the local content, class=tag seems to be a
proper
way to describe the data as a tag without the secondary
function of
describing the local content.

Furthermore, I was thinking that we need a way to markup tag
lists in
general, and as a first order, like the list of tags on
someone's
delicious page, that are not visualized as a tagcloud. This
technique
should be the "parent" of the tagcloud, which, in
my estimation, leads
me back to:

Taglist: <ul class="xoxo"><li><a
href="tag/foo"
class="tag">foo</a></li><li>&
lt;a href="tag/bar"
class="tag">bar</a></li></ul>

Tagcloud: <ul class="xoxo
tagcloud"><li><big><a
href="tag/foo"
class="tag">foo</a></big></li>
;<li><big><big><strong><a
href="tag/bar"
class="tag">bar</a></strong></bi
g></big></li></ul>

Or something along those lines. I don't actually mind John's
vvvv-popular proposal, but again, for accessibility's sake,
you lose
the graph-like quality of the nature of tagclouds.

Chris

On 9/23/06, Stephen Paul Weber <singpolymagmail.com> wrote:
> I'm still not seeing how we could easily extract the
data at all... we
> have to detect all these different class names (or
numbers of <big>
> tags) and translate that to numeric data?  Seems not
too intuitive...
>
> On 9/22/06, John Allsopp <johnwestciv.com> wrote:
> > Frances and Chris,
> >
> > > On 9/22/06, Chris Messina
<chris.messinagmail.com> wrote:
> > >> True -- but as we're in the proposal
stage, it's not too bad...
> > >> however, we do need a
tagcloud-brainstorming page on the wiki with
> > >> all
> > >> of John's research.
> > >>
> > >
> > > True.  imo, it's
always valuable to have a page you can point to
> > > with all the current research - no matter how
useless it might end up
> > > being in the end, so that new thinkers can
pick it up and add to it
> > > easily.
> >
> > I've just set up
> >
> > h
ttp://microformats.org/wiki/tagcloud-brainstorming
> > http:/
/microformats.org/wiki/tagcloud-examples
> >
> > Does anyone have some tips/tools for converting
HTML to Wiki? All the
> > brainstorming, research etc I've done is in HTML.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > j
> >
> > John Allsopp
> >
> > style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/st
yle_master
> > blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.w
estciv.com/dog_or_higher
> > WebPatterns :: http://webpatterns.org
> > Web Directions Conference :: Sydney September
28-29 :: http://wd06.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > microformats-discuss mailing list
> > microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
> >
>
>
> --
> - Stephen Paul Weber, Amateur Writer
> <http://www.awriterz.org&g
t;
>
> MSN/GTalk/Jabber: singpolymagmail.com
> ICQ/AIM: 103332966
> NSA: stephen4northstar-academy.org
> BLOG: http://singpolym
a-tech.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discussmicroformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss
>


-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen Provocateur &
  Open Source Ambassador-at-Large
Work: http://citizenagency.com
Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog

Cell: 412 225-1051
Skype: factoryjoe
This email is:   [ ] bloggable    [X] ask first   [ ]
private
_______________________________________________
microformats-discuss mailing list
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http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microforma
ts-discuss