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List Info
Thread: SPAN, DIV and Rich Examples
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| SPAN, DIV and Rich Examples |

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2006-12-22 16:32:33 |
afternoon list,
A little while back I had a discussion with some people
(Frances
Berriman for one) about including a second set of examples
with the
microformat specs. Dubbed rich examples they would exist
on a
separate page to existing examples and showcase
implementations of
the microformat using varied, adventurous and real world
HTML mark-up.
At the moment, there is a common misconception that
microformat
classes must be applied to DIVs and SPANs. Some developers
are
resistant to adding these as additional elements to their
mark-up.
Of course, the f specs use SPAN and DIV to remain as
ambiguous as
possible; so as not to seemingly require certain semantic
elements
where any is applicable. It aids legibility and avoid
readers
thinking but that example used a DFN and this one uses a P?
What?.
Apart from microformats where a specific element _is_
required, of
course (date-times and ABBR, XOXO, and so on).
So I'd like to propose two things. First, we make a new page
for each
implementable microformat: *-rich-examples. On these pages
we create
and document sets of examples that show microformats
integrated into
all kinds of different HTML structures: Lists, images,
paragraphs,
sidebars, footers and so on.
I think it's important to have them on a separate page as it
will
allow people writing their own examples in the wild to
include a
small link at the base of their piece akin to You can use
all kinds
of mark-up with microformats, see the hCard Rich Examples
page for
all sorts of flexible examples.
Second, to ensure the mis-interpretation regarding SPAN and
DIV is
thoroughly stubbed out I'd like to have a STRONGly
emphasised
paragraph added to the header of each spec. Effectively a
disclaimer
reading:
As you read the microformat specifications and examples,
you'll find they all use SPAN and DIV elements. This is
for
clarity and to help keep the focus on the class names
being
used. However, you should use the most semantic mark-up
appropriate. To see how flexible microformats can be, see
the Rich Examples page.
Better wording of that paragraph would be appreciated!
Is there support for this idea? I'd like to see some
consensus before
making Wiki edits to major spec pages. Plus, the creation of
rich-
examples pages will need collaboration because I don't have
enough
hours to create many by myself.
Regards,
Ben
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| SPAN, DIV and Rich Examples |

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2006-12-22 16:41:02 |
On 12/22/06, Ben Ward <lists ben-ward.co.uk> wrote:
> Is there support for this idea? I'd like to see some
consensus before
> making Wiki edits to major spec pages. Plus, the
creation of rich-
> examples pages will need collaboration because I don't
have enough
> hours to create many by myself.
--- this may or not be much help, but there is a substantial
set of
examples in the HG Test suite[1]. Many use real-world
examples, many
do not. If you do go an make more 'rich examples' maybe we
can combine
our efforts and get the HTML and the expected output and
merge some of
these back into the test suite - and everyone wins!
-brian
[1] - http://hg.microforma
ts.org/tests
--
brian suda
http://suda.co.uk
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| SPAN, DIV and Rich Examples |

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2006-12-22 17:08:40 |
In message <CFA226F2-C6DE-418C-A90B-70A1AFD2B82F ben-ward.co.uk>, Ben
Ward <lists ben-ward.co.uk> writes
>So I'd like to propose two things. First, we make a new
page for each
>implementable microformat: *-rich-examples. On these
pages we create
>and document sets of examples that show microformats
integrated into
>all kinds of different HTML structures: Lists, images,
paragraphs,
>sidebars, footers and so on.
That sounds like a good idea; but I wonder if we should not
break it
down further, and have each example on a separate page, not
on the wiki,
but elsewhere, so they can be "viewed" using any
of the available
parsers.
>Second, to ensure the mis-interpretation regarding SPAN
and DIV is
>thoroughly stubbed out I'd like to have a STRONGly
emphasised
>paragraph added to the header of each spec. Effectively
a disclaimer
>reading:
>
> ‘As you read the microformat specifications and
examples,
> you'll find they all use SPAN and DIV elements. This
is for
> clarity and to help keep the focus on the class names
being
> used. However, you should use the most semantic
mark-up
> appropriate. To see how flexible microformats can be,
see
> the Rich Examples page.’
Yes, do it (use a template to allow for easy updating, such
as the
addition of the final sentence in your example, in future)
>Better wording of that paragraph would be appreciated!
The examples on this page use span and div elements,
for
clarity, but any HTML element can be used (though
abbr is the
only one whose title is parsed).
--
Andy Mabbett
Merry Bloomin' Christmas!
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| SPAN, DIV and Rich Examples |

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2006-12-22 17:29:31 |
On 22 Dec 2006, at 17:08, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> That sounds like a good idea; but I wonder if we should
not break it
> down further, and have each example on a separate page,
not on the
> wiki,
> but elsewhere, so they can be "viewed" using
any of the available
> parsers.
Not sure. I'd see the purpose of the page better served by
being able
to scroll through. There's an element of it being a source
of
inspiration and enlightenment, rather than a tutorial on
each method.
As for parsing with tools: Presuming that our MediaWiki
installation
is capable of rendering the ABBR element by default it
gets
stripped from mark-up surely it would be sufficient to
place an id
on each rendered example? That would make each example
addressable.
>> Better wording of that paragraph would be
appreciated!
> The examples on this page use span and div
elements, for
> clarity, but any HTML element can be used
(though abbr is the
> only one whose title is parsed).
Better, although I don't think it's the right place to refer
to the
intricacies of the ABBR pattern. That would be demonstrated
in
examples themselves. So how about:
The examples on this page and the *-examples page use
SPAN and DIV elements for clarity. However, *any* HTML
element can be used when publishing microformats.
See *-rich-examples for more detail.
(*-examples and *-rich-examples would link to the
appropriate pages,
of course).
Ben
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| SPAN, DIV and Rich Examples |

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2006-12-22 18:32:13 |
In message <194EC263-E01C-47AE-AE89-3E8E145C85B2 ben-ward.co.uk>, Ben
Ward <lists ben-ward.co.uk> writes
>On 22 Dec 2006, at 17:08, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> That sounds like a good idea; but I wonder if we
should not break it
>> down further, and have each example on a separate
page, not on the
>>wiki,
>> but elsewhere, so they can be "viewed"
using any of the available
>> parsers.
>
>Not sure. I'd see the purpose of the page better served
by being able
>to scroll through. There's an element of it being a
source of
>inspiration and enlightenment, rather than a tutorial on
each method.
Prominent "Previous" and "Next" links
should take care of that.
>As for parsing with tools: Presuming that our MediaWiki
installation
>is capable of rendering the ABBR element — by default
it gets stripped
>from mark-up — surely it would be sufficient to place
an id on each
>rendered example? That would make each example
addressable.
Not if you want to demonstrate the full range of elements
being marked
up; and enable them to be test cases for parser developers.
>>> Better wording of that paragraph would be
appreciated!
>> The examples on this page use span and div
elements, for
>> clarity, but any HTML element can be used
(though abbr is the
>> only one whose title is parsed).
>
>Better, although I don't think it's the right place to
refer to the
>intricacies of the ABBR pattern. That would be
demonstrated in
>examples themselves. So how about:
>
> “The examples on this page and the *-examples page
use
> SPAN and DIV elements for clarity. However, *any* HTML
> element can be used when publishing microformats.
> See *-rich-examples for more detail.”
In that case, I'd suggest using the "abbr" clause
as a footnote.
--
Andy Mabbett
Merry Bloomin' Christmas!
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