Re: Formatting arbitrary dates, not part of hCalendar

This is what <microformats-discussmicroformats.org> said
about "Re: [uf-discuss] Formatting arbitra" on 7
Mar 2007 at 14:39

> From: James Craig
> 
> In this case, I think what you are looking for is the
'datetime' 
> attribute on INS and DEL elements.
> 
>      <ins datetime="2007-03-05">5 March
2007</ins>

Nope...

> From: Paul Wilkins
>
> So it's not the date that's the relevant part, it's the
software release 
> instead.


Erm, neither.  My usage isn't meant to refer to a change in
the document in which it appears 
(ruling out the semantic use of <ins> and
<del>), nor is it meant to refer to software 
releases in particular. Let me try again:

  <abbr
title="2007-03-08">Today</abbr> I bought
an old 
  newspaper from <abbr title="2006-07-02">2
July 2006</abbr>

These are arbitrary dates, NOT related to the publishing
date of the document it appears in, 
not related to any resources such as a software release.  I
simply want dates occuring within 
prose to be recognized as machine-readable dates.  This is
for both for screen readers and 
disabiguation of dates such as 3/2/2006 or 02-03-06.  It's
also useful when quoting text with 
poorly formatted dates, without altering the presentation of
the original quote, eg.

  The Constitution of <abbr
title="1776-07-04">4/7/76</abbr>

Andy Mabbett suggested a class of "dtstamp" which
comes closer to what I intend, but the 
iCalendar property DTSTAMP is specifically meant to indicate
when an iCalendar object was 
created, which is not the case here.


Following the design pattern for dates, I think we need a
semantic classname such as 
"datetime" which James Craig pointed out is an
attribute for <ins> and <del>

  <abbr class="datetime"
title="2006-03-02">March 2, 2006</abbr>

Does such a classname for an arbitrary date/time already
exist?  


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Bob Jonkman wrote:

>Erm, neither.  My usage isn't meant to refer to a change
in the document in which it appears 
>(ruling out the semantic use of <ins> and
<del>), nor is it meant to refer to software 
>releases in particular. Let me try again:
>
>  <abbr
title="2007-03-08">Today</abbr> I bought
an old 
>  newspaper from <abbr
title="2006-07-02">2 July 2006</abbr>
>
>These are arbitrary dates, NOT related to the publishing
date of the document it appears in, 
>not related to any resources such as a software release.
 I simply want dates occuring within 
>prose to be recognized as machine-readable dates.  This
is for both for screen readers and 
>disabiguation of dates such as 3/2/2006 or 02-03-06. 
It's also useful when quoting text with 
>poorly formatted dates, without altering the
presentation of the original quote, eg.
>
>  The Constitution of <abbr
title="1776-07-04">4/7/76</abbr>
>  
>

 From what James was saying before, screen readers are going
to 
misbehave with that kind of design pattern.
For abbr to be used, the information in the title has to be
more 
meaningful to the human, than the information contained
within.

>Andy Mabbett suggested a class of "dtstamp"
which comes closer to what I intend, but the 
>iCalendar property DTSTAMP is specifically meant to
indicate when an iCalendar object was 
>created, which is not the case here.
>
>Following the design pattern for dates, I think we need
a semantic classname such as 
>"datetime" which James Craig pointed out is an
attribute for <ins> and <del>
>
>  <abbr class="datetime"
title="2006-03-02">March 2, 2006</abbr>
>
>Does such a classname for an arbitrary date/time already
exist?  
>  
>

Not for an arbitrary one. See 
http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-principles#dt_pr
operties

A difficulty that I see here is that the abbr for March 2,
2006 doesn't 
disambiguate. It's perfectly clear what's going on in that
particular case.

With the previous example, you might write the date as
4/7/76 and force 
the reader to find and use the abbreviation, but as someone
who cares 
enough to create a datetime design pattern, it should be
obvious that 
writing the date as July 4, 1776 solves the problem.

Another trouble is that with the arbitrary datetime pattern
in use, how 
can the machine benefit from that information. It's not
immediately clear.

So I have to ask, if the text can be more easily rewritten
to be 
clearer, and the abbr element isn't going to allow the
information to be 
processed by some program, then are we just creating a
microformat here 
just for the sake of creating one?

Steps one and two of the microformat principles 
http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats#t
he_microformats_principles are
* Solve a specific problem
* Start as simple as possible

Problem. Date 02-03-06 can be misunderstood.
Solution: Write the date as March 2, 2006 or 2nd of March,
2006


-- 
Paul Mark Wilkins
New Zealand Tourism Online
pmw57xtra.co.nz <mailto:pmw57xtra.co.nz>
109 Tuam Street
Level 1
Christchurch 8011
New Zealand
+64 3 963 5039
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Bob Jonkman wrote:

>I simply want dates occuring within 
>prose to be recognized as machine-readable dates.
>

Why do you want them to eb recognised as machine readable
dates? What 
problem will it solve for the machines?

>This is for both for screen readers and 
>disabiguation of dates such as 3/2/2006 or 02-03-06.
>

As I'm to believe, screen readers will read out both parts
of the date 
information. As such, having the title as 4 July 1776 will
mean the 
screen reader will read
"The Constitution of 4 7 76 4 July 1776"

>It's also useful when quoting text with 
>poorly formatted dates, without altering the
presentation of the original quote, eg.
>
>  The Constitution of <abbr
title="1776-07-04">4/7/76</abbr>
>  
>

That is the one example in which the abbr element could be
usefully used.

The abbr element doesn't require a class, because there is
no problem 
that having such a format will currently solve. The
microformat 
principles mention something similar, in that "Lots of
corporate 
inventors working with plenty of experience, over-designing
a format for 
what //might// be needed some day."
http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats#t
he_microformats_principles

As the title is currently for screen readers or to
disambiguate the 
date, it should be kept in a human understandable format.
The Constitution of <abbr title="4 July
1776">4/7/76</abbr>

There is some very useful information from the Manual of
Style on the 
formatting of dates and numbers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip
edia:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29

The following is a direct quote of the relevant parts.


      Incorrect date formats

    * Do not use numbers to express a month, except in ISO
8601 format.
      Always express a month as a whole word (e.g.
"February" /not/
      "2"). Do not use abbreviations like
"Feb" unless the available
      space is extremely limited, such as in a table,
infobox, or the like.
    * Do not use two digits to express a year unless at the
end of a
      range, e.g., "1970–87" (the same for BC). In
all other cases, use
      four digits for years and decades after AD 999 (the
same for BC).
      Using the less formal two-digit form for a decade is
acceptable
      when not ambiguous; for example, when referring to the
decade of
      the 20th century known as "the eighties",
use "1980s" or, less
      often, "the '80s", not just
"80s".

    * Use consistent date formatting throughout an article,
unless there
      is a good reason to vary it.

    * Do not use ordinal suffixes:
          o Incorrect: "February 14th" and
"14th February"
          o Correct: "February 14" and "14
February"

    * Do not use articles:
          o Incorrect: "the 14th of February"
          o Correct: "February 14" and "14
February"

    * Do not put a comma or the word "of" between
a month and year:
          o Incorrect: "December, 1945" and
"December of 1945"
          o Correct: "December 1945"

    * Do not use an apostrophe to indicate a decade:
          o Incorrect: 1970's
          o Correct: 1970s


      Direct quotations

An important exception to these guidelines is that direct
quotations—the 
word-for-word reproduction of a written or oral text—should
/not/ be 
altered to conform to the Wikipedia "Manual of
Style". In other words, a 
paragraph such as this (fictional) quotation from a
newspaper report is 
fine as is:

    "Tony Blair, responding to critics in his party,
said 'The world has
    totally changed since the 11th of September.' He was
echoing earlier
    sentiments by Lord Ronald McDonald, who said that
'nine-eleven' was
    the day that the American public woke up to the reality
of terrorism."



-- 
Paul Mark Wilkins
New Zealand Tourism Online
pmw57xtra.co.nz <mailto:pmw57xtra.co.nz>
109 Tuam Street
Level 1
Christchurch 8011
New Zealand
+64 3 963 5039
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On 3/8/07, Bob Jonkman <bjonkmansobac.com> wrote:
<snip>
> These are arbitrary dates, NOT related to the
publishing date of the document it appears in,
> not related to any resources such as a software
release.  I simply want dates occuring within
> prose to be recognized as machine-readable dates.  This
is for both for screen readers and
> disabiguation of dates such as 3/2/2006 or 02-03-06. 
It's also useful when quoting text with
> poorly formatted dates, without altering the
presentation of the original quote, eg.
>
>   The Constitution of <abbr
title="1776-07-04">4/7/76</abbr>
>
> Andy Mabbett suggested a class of "dtstamp"
which comes closer to what I intend, but the
> iCalendar property DTSTAMP is specifically meant to
indicate when an iCalendar object was
> created, which is not the case here.
>
>
> Following the design pattern for dates, I think we need
a semantic classname such as
> "datetime" which James Craig pointed out is
an attribute for <ins> and <del>
>
>   <abbr class="datetime"
title="2006-03-02">March 2, 2006</abbr>
>
> Does such a classname for an arbitrary date/time
already exist?
>

I've always had trouble with the idea of using <abbr>
to mark up dates
because semantically, it isn't expressing an abbreviation of
any sort.
It's simply a different form of the same date. I also have a
hard time
with the idea of using <ins> and <del> because
their semantic meaning
is to express content that's been changed[1].

I really think that what's needed, in line with what you're
asking, is
a class name that's canonized as a microformat along these
lines:

<span class="datetime iso"
title="2006-07-02">July 2, 2006</span>

In this case, the title serves to provide the accurate
datetime data
while the content within the tags can be tailored to the
author's
preference and country/language while still being machine
readable.

1- htt
p://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#h-9.4

Cheers,
A.
-- 
Ara Pehlivanian

Site: http://arapehlivanian.com/

Email & GTalk: ara.pehlivaniangmail.com
MSN: ara_photmail.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/ara_p/
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In message <45F0A1ED.3510.2001717bjonkman.sobac.com>, Bob
Jonkman 
<bjonkmansobac.com> writes

>Andy Mabbett suggested a class of "dtstamp"
which comes closer to what 
>I intend, but the iCalendar property DTSTAMP is
specifically meant to 
>indicate when an iCalendar object was created, which is
not the case 
>here.

Fair enough; I stand corrected.

>Following the design pattern for dates, I think we need
a semantic 
>classname such as "datetime"

Agreed.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
                  <http://www
.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/>

                     Welcome to the world's longest week!
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