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Thread: changing abbr-design-pattern to title-design-pattern?




changing abbr-design-pattern to title-design-pattern?
country flaguser name
United Kingdom
2007-04-29 17:14:23
Tantek Çelik wrote:

> However, I'm against contorting microformats because of
bugs or
> suboptimal behaviors in <1% marketshare browsers.

On my reading of the HTML 4.01 specification and WCAG 1.0,
the title
attribute was clearly intended to provide additional /human
readable/
information:

http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#adef-t
itle

http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-ABBR

htt
p://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#text-abbr

On this reading, the use of title for information formatted
for machines 
not people is a hack. So I think it's erroneous to describe
reading out 
the ISO date time format from title as a "bug". I
agree having a setting 
to recast ISO dates into a localized, human readable format
might be an 
optimal behaviour, but it would be best if such conversion
was triggered 
only in contexts where the ISO format was not meant for
direct human 
consumption. In this sense, describing it as
"suboptimal" behaviour 
presumes screen reader foreknowledge of microformats, which
seems to go 
against the already quoted credo of the microformats
movement.

Your interpretation of the relevant specs may be different,
of course. 

With regards to the attempt to list screen readers on the
microformats
wiki, I'd like to draw correspondents attention to the list
of past and
present screen readers on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_screen_reade
rs

The current microformats wikipage's emphasis on the latest
versions is
somewhat misplaced. It's important to remember that partly
because
popular screen reading software is prohibitively expensive,
many screen
reader users are using older versions. I'm subscribed to
several screen
reader mailing lists. The latest version of Freedom
Scientific's JAWS
(probably the most popular screen reader) is 8. But judging
from mailing
lists dedicated to JAWS and other screen readers, users of 8
are
outnumbered by users of 7. Many correspondents are still on
6. Some few
correspondents still use 5 or even 4.51, e.g.:

http://www.freelists.org/archives/jfw/03-2007/msg0085
7.html

http://www.freelists.org/archives/jaws-uk/03-2007
/msg00125.html

With web browsers, one might have a moral case for putting
the onus on
users to upgrade to free and technically superior
alternatives, though 
taking such a moral position appears not to be a widely
viable 
commercial practice. But in the case of screen readers, the
free 
solutions still have a long way to go to be very effective
replacements 
for their expensive peers, so a similar moral argument is
difficult to 
construct.

I'm afraid asking for estimates of the size of the userbase
for each
version is a bit unrealistic. There's very little public
information
about such matters.

The World Health Organization estimated that in 2002, 37
million people
around the world (0.59%) were blind and an additional 124
million
(1.99%) had low vision:

http://www.who.int/gb/ebwha/pdf_files/WHA59/A59_12-en.p
df

3.58% is only a little short of estimates of Safari's market
share and
much higher than estimates of Opera's:

h
ttp://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=0

Of course, because people with visual impairments are likely
to have
poorer life opportunities and to be older, I'd guess they
are
under-represented in uptake of new technologies and the
internet generally.

In 2002, Chris Hofstader of Freedom Scientific testified
that "There are
approximately 80,000 registered users of JAWS":

h
ttp://web.archive.org/web/20021015235548/http://www.microsof
t.com/presspass/trial/mswitness/2002/hofstader.asp

I assume he meant worldwide, but it's hard to be certain.

According to a study of screen reader use published in
December 2003, a
spokesperson for the US National Federation of the Blind
estimated that
in the USA, JAWS had 65% of the screen reader market and
GW-Micro
Window-Eyes had 35%; also JAWS was the software most
commonly used by
U.S. federal workers:

http://www.redish.net/content/papers/interactions.html


If these figures held true beyond the US, one could predict
around
40,000 registered Window-Eyes users worldwide. However,
non-US markets
may favour other screen readers such as the Brazilian screen
reader
MicroPower Virtual Vision.

In a published interview with Access World in March 2007
that proved
controversial and has subsequently disappeared from the
site, Hofstader
apparently said that 2,000 copies of screen reader software
are sold per
month:

http://blogs.
sun.com/korn/date/20070309

Any sale of a Mac is also a sale of VoiceOver, an effective
screen
reader. Any download of Ubuntu Linux or Solaris is also a
download of
Orca, an increasingly competent open source screen reader.

With regards to the particular issue at hand, it's fortunate
that many
screen reader users probably have not configured their
software to read 
title automatically since:

1) It's not the default behaviour in JAWS or Window-Eyes.

2) Current screen readers do not (AFAIK) discriminate
between familiar
and unfamiliar, or even first-occurrence and repeated,
abbreviations and
acronyms when reading title attributes.

3) title is sometimes abused to spam search engines.

http://juicystudio.com/article/using-title-attribute.php


Suboptimal UA behaviour and bad authoring practices don't
excuse
additional misuse by the microformats movement, of course.

But if title must be used, putting human-hostile title
attributes on an
empty element seems a better hack than misusing abbr or
acronym,
/subject to testing with a range of assistive technology/.

A specialized data attribute is under consideration by
WHATWG for use
with scripts, but it might also help with this problem …
eventually.

http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/what
wg-whatwg.org/2007-April/010800.html

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
_______________________________________________
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ts-discuss

Re: changing abbr-design-pattern to title-design-pattern?
country flaguser name
United States
2007-04-29 20:12:01
Welcome to microformats-discuss Benjamin!


On 4/29/07 3:14 PM, "Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis"
<bhawkeslewisgooglemail.com>
wrote:

> Tantek Çelik wrote:
> 
>> However, I'm against contorting microformats
because of bugs or
>> suboptimal behaviors in <1% marketshare
browsers.
> 
> On my reading of the HTML 4.01 specification and WCAG
1.0, the title
> attribute was clearly intended to provide additional
/human readable/
> information:
> 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#adef-t
itle
> 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-ABBR
> 
> htt
p://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#text-abbr

Agreed.


> On this reading, the use of title for information
formatted for machines
> not people is a hack.

Certainly formatted for machines and *unreadable* to people
would be yes,
e.g. a datetime in pure binary, or even just an integer such
as seconds
since 1970-01-01T00:00Z.

ISO8601 dates (and datetimes) are actually quite readable
for many people
(e.g. it might have taken you a second or two, but I'm sure
you were able to
parse the previous sentenc) even though they are clearly
intended to be
easier for machines to read.

The point is that human readability and machine readability
are not
necessarily in opposition/conflict.  Often you can get
*both*.

Sometimes (as with ISO dates) you get something that is
mostly or at least
somewhat human readable, just so that it *can be* machine
readable.

One of the microformats principles is humans first, machine
second.  That
doesn't mean machines *never*.  It means that microformats
*do* still aim to
make machine readable formats.


> So I think it's erroneous to describe reading out
> the ISO date time format from title as a
"bug".

Depends on the reading.  Even words *could* be
misread/mispronounced.


> I agree having a setting
> to recast ISO dates into a localized, human readable
format might be an
> optimal behaviour, but it would be best if such
conversion was triggered
> only in contexts where the ISO format was not meant for
direct human
> consumption. In this sense, describing it as
"suboptimal" behaviour
> presumes screen reader foreknowledge of microformats,
which seems to go
> against the already quoted credo of the microformats
movement.

Just because microformats are designed to "work"
today, that doesn't mean
they are restricted to those solutions where *all* behaviors
are expected to
work today.

Microformats work today very simply and immediately for
*some* uses, perhaps
only even *one* use today.

However, by expressing semantics, they are specifically
designed to enable
and encourage *new* and more intelligent uses.

The "works today" is a minimal bar to be met, not
a restriction.


> Your interpretation of the relevant specs may be
different, of course. 
> 
> With regards to the attempt to list screen readers on
the microformats
> wiki, I'd like to draw correspondents attention to the
list of past and
> present screen readers on Wikipedia:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_screen_reade
rs

Thanks very much for providing this reference.

It points out that our goal should NOT be to simply
duplicate the work done
elsewhere with a comprhensive list of assistive technologies
(including
screen readers).

Rather, since the goal is real world testing of actual
microformats content
in the wild, we restrict the technologies on that list to
those which those
in the community have access to, or are in direct
communication with someone
who has access to.  I've noted this on the wiki page so that
we can stay
focused on actionable research:

 htt
p://microformats.org/wiki/assistive-technology


> The current microformats wikipage's emphasis on the
latest versions is
> somewhat misplaced.

I just re-read the page and apologize for whatever I wrote
that gave that
impression.  To be clear, I think the key focus here is
(quoted from the top
of the page)

"currently known accessibility assistive technologies
(implementations) that
are being used in the wild"

In other words, obsolete implementations that are not being
used are not
worth documenting for our purposes (or certainly doing so
should be the
lowest priority).


> It's important to remember that partly because
> popular screen reading software is prohibitively
expensive, many screen
> reader users are using older versions. I'm subscribed
to several screen
> reader mailing lists. The latest version of Freedom
Scientific's JAWS
> (probably the most popular screen reader) is 8. But
judging from mailing
> lists dedicated to JAWS and other screen readers, users
of 8 are
> outnumbered by users of 7. Many correspondents are
still on 6. Some few
> correspondents still use 5 or even 4.51, e.g.:
> 
> http://www.freelists.org/archives/jfw/03-2007/msg0085
7.html
> 
> http://www.freelists.org/archives/jaws-uk/03-2007
/msg00125.html

Thanks for that information.  I have added those specific
versions of JAWS
to the wiki:

  http://microformats.org/wiki/assistive-technology#JAWS


If you have additional information such as rough numbers of
users, or dates
of when those versions were published, or URLs where they
can be published,
PLEASE add that information to the wiki page.


> With web browsers, one might have a moral case for
putting the onus on
> users to upgrade to free and technically superior
alternatives, though
> taking such a moral position appears not to be a widely
viable
> commercial practice. But in the case of screen readers,
the free
> solutions still have a long way to go to be very
effective replacements
> for their expensive peers, so a similar moral argument
is difficult to
> construct.

But not entirely impossible nor unreasonable.  The reality
is that software
*does* get improved over time.  Just the fact that JAWS is
up to version 8
demonstrates this, and demonstrates sufficient demand for
new versions JAWS
that the publishers keep updating it.  Therefore there is a
case to be made
for both encouraging improvements (since history has shown
that software
does get improved), and clearly there is demand for better
software
(sufficient to support the market), for encouraging the
consumers of such
software to demand even better software.


> I'm afraid asking for estimates of the size of the
userbase for each
> version is a bit unrealistic. There's very little
public information
> about such matters.

Even very *rough* estimates would be useful.


> The World Health Organization estimated that in 2002,
37 million people
> around the world (0.59%) were blind and an additional
124 million
> (1.99%) had low vision:
> 
> http://www.who.int/gb/ebwha/pdf_files/WHA59/A59_12-en.p
df
> 
> 3.58% is only a little short of estimates of Safari's
market share and
> much higher than estimates of Opera's:
> 
> h
ttp://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=0
> 
> Of course, because people with visual impairments are
likely to have
> poorer life opportunities and to be older, I'd guess
they are
> under-represented in uptake of new technologies and the
internet generally.

And if they're not using the internet already, it's not
clear that changes
we make in microformats would help them in that regard,
though if you can
find a link between microformats and helping the blind
*start* using the
internet, I'd be very interested to hear about it, as that
sounds like a
worthy endeavor.


> In 2002, Chris Hofstader of Freedom Scientific
testified that "There are
> approximately 80,000 registered users of JAWS":
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/2002101
5235548/http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/t
> rial/mswitness/2002/hofstader.asp
> 
> I assume he meant worldwide, but it's hard to be
certain.

Thank you. I've added that to the wiki page as well.


> According to a study of screen reader use published in
December 2003, a
> spokesperson for the US National Federation of the
Blind estimated that
> in the USA, JAWS had 65% of the screen reader market
and GW-Micro
> Window-Eyes had 35%; also JAWS was the software most
commonly used by
> U.S. federal workers:
> 
> http://www.redish.net/content/papers/interactions.html


Noted on wiki page.

> 
> If these figures held true beyond the US, one could
predict around
> 40,000 registered Window-Eyes users worldwide. However,
non-US markets
> may favour other screen readers such as the Brazilian
screen reader
> MicroPower Virtual Vision.
> 
> In a published interview with Access World in March
2007 that proved
> controversial and has subsequently disappeared from the
site, Hofstader
> apparently said that 2,000 copies of screen reader
software are sold per
> month:
> 
> http://blogs.
sun.com/korn/date/20070309
> 
> Any sale of a Mac is also a sale of VoiceOver, an
effective screen
> reader. Any download of Ubuntu Linux or Solaris is also
a download of
> Orca, an increasingly competent open source screen
reader.

Pure "sales" numbers, especially as part of other
products which themselves
may be the primary reason for purchase, are unlikely to be
accurate enough
to show actual numbers of *users*. The key here is users
rather than
downloads or sales.


> With regards to the particular issue at hand, it's
fortunate that many
> screen reader users probably have not configured their
software to read
> title automatically since:
> 
> 1) It's not the default behaviour in JAWS or
Window-Eyes.

Is this true across versions?  Could you document your
per-version knowledge
of defaults for screen readers on the wiki?

  htt
p://microformats.org/wiki/assistive-technology


> 2) Current screen readers do not (AFAIK) discriminate
between familiar
> and unfamiliar, or even first-occurrence and repeated,
abbreviations and
> acronyms when reading title attributes.

Please indicate which specific screen readers and versions
you know that
about on the wiki page.


> 3) title is sometimes abused to spam search engines.
> 
> http://juicystudio.com/article/using-title-attribute.php

> 
> Suboptimal UA behaviour and bad authoring practices
don't excuse
> additional misuse by the microformats movement, of
course.
> 
> But if title must be used, putting human-hostile title
attributes on an
> empty element seems a better hack than misusing abbr or
acronym,
> /subject to testing with a range of assistive
technology/.

Agreed very strongly with that last clause.


> A specialized data attribute is under consideration by
WHATWG for use
> with scripts, but it might also help with this problem
Š eventually.
> 
> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/what
wg-whatwg.org/2007-April/010800.html


Indeed.  microformats has chosen to build upon proper use of
valid semantic
(X)HTML AKA POSH:

 http://microformats
.org/wiki/posh

For solutions which require adding new attributes or
elements, I *strongly*
recommend you work with the WhatWG effort (and W3C's *new*
HTML working
group) on getting such additions into HTML5.  In as much as
microformats'
real world experience can help, please feel free to cite
discussions and
proposals/tests/results here to make your case for any new
attributes/elements.

Thanks for all the info Benjamin, and again, welcome to the
list.

Tantek


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