Re: RFC: sHTML Video Thumbnailing

Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote:

> On 5/27/07, Maciej Stachowiak <mjsapple.com> wrote:

[snip]

>> I don't think this is a very natural use of the
<q> element. A
>> thumbnail isn't really like a quote of a prose
fragment. Consider
>> that you would never put a thumbnail in quotation
marks.
> 
> True... but you don't have to have the <q>
elements put quotes around
> the thumbnail.
> 
> Please refer to the following to see how to get rid of
it...
> 
> http://microformats.org/discuss/ma
il/microformats-discuss/2007-May/009703.html 
> 
> 
> This is similar to the problem we have with using
<abbr> for dates.
> 
> Some browsers put a border under the <abbr>
element.
> 
> We get rid of the bottom border some browser put under
the <abbr>
> element (when we use it for dates) with a little extra
inline style.
> 
> We can do something similar here for the <q>
element used for video 
> thumbnails.

Hmm. I think Maciej does have a strong point about
interoperability 
here. Removing the quotation punctuation with CSS does not
help those 
with user-designated styles or UAs that ignore such CSS:
e.g. text 
browsers and screen readers. The question to ask yourself
is: if you 
could not remove the quotation punctuation and layout, would
you still 
use <q> and <blockquote>? If a screen reader
read (for example):

quote Dorothy encounters the Lion end quote

That would be rather strange, wouldn't it? As you say above,
it is 
"True" that "you would never put a thumbnail
in quotation marks." This 
suggests that we should not be using <q> or
<blockquote> for this.

Maybe it would be better to use something along the lines
of:

<span class="video-details"><img
class="thumbnail" alt="Dorothy 
encounters the Lion" src="http://example.com/thumbnail.jpg"><cite>
;<a 
href="http://example.com/
thevideo" type="video/quicktime">The
Wizard of 
Ozz</a></cite></span>

>> If you want the full video to be clickable, what
you might want is:
>>
>> <a rev="thumbnail" href="http://example.com
/video">
>>    <img src="http://exa
mple.com/thumbnail.jpg">
>> </a>
> 
> I'm not sure if the "rev" attribute is being
used correctly in your markup.

Yeah, the HTML4 spec says the rev and rel imply
relationships between 
the current document and the href, not the anchor's contents
and the href.

http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#adef-rev

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
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On May 28, 2007, at 1:49 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote:

> Hmm. I think Maciej does have a strong point about
interoperability  
> here. Removing the quotation punctuation with CSS does
not help  
> those with user-designated styles or UAs that ignore
such CSS: e.g.  
> text browsers and screen readers. The question to ask
yourself is:  
> if you could not remove the quotation punctuation and
layout, would  
> you still use <q> and <blockquote>? If a
screen reader read (for  
> example):
>
> quote Dorothy encounters the Lion end quote
>
> That would be rather strange, wouldn't it?

I dunno, I think that might be helpful. It's semantic
information that  
it's a portion of a larger document. Using a span tag as you
suggest  
provides the UA with zero semantic information. I suspect
having alt  
tags that just link to a video which perhaps they don't want
to watch  
is annoying to people with screen readers -- although I
think I would  
need a bit more data about how screen readers work and how
they're  
used to really say anything else.

-Colin
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Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote:
>
> Yeah, the HTML4 spec says the rev and rel imply
relationships between 
> the current document and the href, not the anchor's
contents and the 
> href.
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html#adef-rev

I think eRDF's approach is worth noting here - when
translated into 
RDF,  rel and rev links relate the current *document*
*fragment* to the 
*href.*

It's not quite what the spec says, but I think it's
sensible: after all, 
the href can point to a document fragment, so the  rel/rev
should also 
be able to relate  to  the current document fragment as
well.
 

Keith



[1] http://research.talis.com/2005/erdf/wiki/Main/RdfInHtml - the 
canonical description of eRDF

[2] http://getsemantic.c
om/wiki/ERDF - a wiki page about eRDF

-- 
Keith Alexander
http://se
mwebdev.keithalexander.co.uk/blog/

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